Aarati Asundi (00:12) Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Smart Tea Podcast where we talk about the lives of scientists and innovators who shape the world. I'm Aarati Jyoti Asundi (00:21) And I'm her mom, Jyoti. Aarati Asundi (00:22) And today, mom, I have a very special story for you. I have sitting on this story for several months now. I actually learned about this many months ago when I was scrolling on TikTok, which I spend entirely too much time doing. Jyoti Asundi (00:41) Don't we all have our own favorite poison that... Aarati Asundi (00:44) Yes, yes. Jyoti Asundi (00:45) ...takes over our life. So yours is TikTok. Aarati Asundi (00:49) Yeah, and it's so bad because it's just these short little videos that if you don't like it, you can just keep scrolling. And because of that, my attention span is like 15 seconds. And if you capture me... Jyoti Asundi (01:00) Fragmented. Yes. Aarati Asundi (1:01) Yeah. But this video that I saw on TikTok was a clip from a movie that captured my attention because it was Alan Rickman in the movie. Jyoti Asundi (01:17) Oh! Yes yes. Aarati Asundi (01:19) But I didn't recognize the movie. So Alan Rickman is playing a doctor of some sort. And he's in some swanky party. And he's talking to a group of other doctors, mostly men. But then there is a woman doctor who is played by Mary Stuart Masterson, who I don't know if you remember the movie Fried Green Tomatoes? Jyoti Asundi (01:41) Oh yes. Aarati Asundi (01:42) Yeah, she's the Idgie character. Jyoti Asundi (01:45) Yes, okay. Aarati Asundi (01:46) Yes, love that movie. Jyoti Asundi (01:48) Absolutely. Aarati Asundi (01:49) So Mary Stuart Masterson is playing a woman doctor and she's trying to convince Alan Rickman's character to think seriously about whether there's a way to treat blue baby syndrome surgically. Jyoti Asundi (02:02) Oh okay. Aarati Asundi (02:03) And so all the other men in the group are kind of scoffing at her because they're like, that would mean that you would have to do a heart operation, which would require stopping the heart. And that's impossible without killing the patient. But Alan Rickman is listening very seriously. Like it should be able to be done. Right? Jyoti Asundi (02:23) Okay. Aarati Asundi (02:24) So that was it, that was all I got from the TikTok. Jyoti Asundi (02:25) That's all you got. Were you able to track the movie then? Aarati Asundi (02:29) Of course, yes. So I hunted down the movie, It turns out it's a 2004 movie called Something the Lord Made. Jyoti Asundi (02:36) Okay. Aarati Asundi (02:37) And Alan Rickman is playing a real doctor named Dr. Alfred Blalock. And Mary Stuart Masterson was playing Dr. Helen Taussig. Jyoti Asundi (02:48) okay. Aarati Asundi (02:49) But then in the continuation of that scene, so Helen Taussig is asking Alfred Blalock about a surgical intervention for blue baby syndrome. And Dr. Blalock starts to think through it out loud. And there's this black man who is a waiter at this swanky party and he's just been kind of hovering around the group, refilling their drinks and taking away empty glasses. Jyoti Asundi (03:17) And eavesdropping. Aarati Asundi (03:19) And eavesdropping, yeah. And as Dr. Blalock starts to brainstorm out loud about like what could be done and maybe if we did it this way, this waiter starts to brainstorm with him and starts talking about ventricular fibrillation and the pulmonary artery. And they're just having this like back and forth, but what if we did this? And it's like, no, but then you have to do that first. And, what if we focused on the pulmonary artery? Oh that could maybe work. And these two are now like in their own little world of medical discussion. Jyoti Asundi (03:50) Yes! Oh my God! Sounds absolutely fascinating. You have already got me on the edge of my seat now. Aarati Asundi (03:59) Yeah, it's fascinating. So now everyone in the group in the movie is staring at this doctor talking to this waiter. And they're in this deep discussion until Helen Taussig interrupts and she asks the waiter, just who on God's green earth are you that you can talk like this, you know? Jyoti Asundi (04:18) Yes, how do you know so much? Yes. Aarati Asundi (04:21) Yeah. So that waiter is played by Mos Def and the real life person that he's playing is a man named Vivien Thomas. Jyoti Asundi (04:33) Viven Thomas. Okay. Aarati Asundi (04:34) Yes, and today that's who we're gonna be talking about. Jyoti Asundi (04:38) Oh my goodness lovely setup. I love your setup. The only thing I'm missing now at this point is what exactly is a blue baby? Aarati Asundi (04:47) Yeah, we'll get into that. Jyoti Asundi (04:49) All right. Aarati Asundi (04:49) But like I said, I discovered this movie a long time ago. I wrote up the story and it's just been sitting on my computer for several months because I was waiting for the perfect time to tell it. And I thought, you know what, it's February, Valentine's Day is approaching... Jyoti Asundi (05:06) Oh yes, yes. Aarati Asundi (05:06) ...and we're gonna be talking about the heart a lot. And it's also Black History Month. And so what better time to do a story about a black scientist? Jyoti Asundi (05:15) A perfect juxtaposition of everything. All the planets are aligning for the story to finally be unveiled. Nice. Lovely. Aarati Asundi (05:21) Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And not to plug our own podcast too hard, but I do think that it makes sense to listen to his story first or know about his story before you go and watch the movie because I feel like if you don't know the backstory, the movie kind of is a bit disjointed, I felt like. Jyoti Asundi (05:45) Ah! Yeah, they can't bring all the pieces together scientifically and still retain the drama element that a movie requires in order to be successful. Yes, I hear that. Aarati Asundi (05:56) Yeah, just some of the context and knowing some of the history will, I think, enhance your enjoyment of watching that movie. Jyoti Asundi (06:04) We'll focus on the science. Okay, sounds good. Aarati Asundi (06:06) Yes. And then Saturday night movie night we have one lined up. Jyoti Asundi (06:11) Yes, awesome. Aarati Asundi (06:12) Okay. So let's get into the story of Vivien Thomas. He was born on August 29th, 1910 in Lake Providence, Louisiana. His father, William Maceo and his mother, Mary Eaton, had three children before Vivien was born. The eldest was a girl named Olga, and then they had two younger boys, Harold and Maceo. Jyoti Asundi (06:38) Okay. Aarati Asundi (06:39) And then after that when Mary Eaton was pregnant with her fourth child, she was absolutely convinced that she was gonna have another girl because they had one girl and two boys. So she was convinced. Jyoti Asundi (06:51) Yes. It was time for girl to come around. Aarati Asundi (06:54) Yeah, balance out those boys. Jyoti Asundi (06:55) Balance it all out 50-50, unless you've got a dog. Aarati Asundi (07:00) Yes, exactly. And so while Mary is still pregnant, they picked out the name Vivien because they were convinced it would be a girl. But then, to their surprise, when a little boy was born, they just had fallen in love with the name Vivien and they gave it to him anyway. Jyoti Asundi (07:18) They continued with it. Okay. I hope that worked out for him and he didn't get bullied I hope? Aarati Asundi (07:24) Yeah, I'm not sure why they didn't just switch it to some other like Victor or some other V name that would have worked out just as well. But Vivien's not too bad, I guess, as far as at least it's not Jennifer or something like... Jyoti Asundi (07:38) Yes, yes, yes. Aarati Asundi (07:39) That would have been really weird. When Vivien was two, his family moved to Nashville, Tennessee, and there his parents had one more child. Finally, the daughter that they had been expecting. Jyoti Asundi (07:50) They could have saved the name for her she could have been Vivien. Okay Aarati Asundi (07:53) They could have, but they named her Melba. William the father, was a carpenter and a contractor and built the house that the family lived in. Jyoti Asundi (08:03) Oh nice, good set of skills. Aarati Asundi (08:05) Yeah, he knew everything. Mary, the mother, was a seamstress and sewed all of the children's clothes. And overall, they were very happy family. They did pretty well for themselves. Vivien went to public school and received a fantastic education. Vivien wrote an autobiography and he wrote that the teachers were "concerned and dedicated and were determined that children would learn whatever they were supposed to learn". Jyoti Asundi (08:34) Very nice. Aarati Asundi (08:34) Yeah. And the children were also encouraged by both of their parents and their teachers to do well in school and respect authority. So very solid upbringing. Jyoti Asundi (08:44) Yes. Very, encouraging to the kids and to develop their own futures and education is given priority. That's always a good household. Aarati Asundi (08:53) Yes. At home, Vivien's father taught his sons carpentry whenever they weren't busy with school. So Vivien started out learning how to hammer nails and measure things. And by the time he was 16, he could hang doors, install locks, and build staircases without any help whatsoever. Jyoti Asundi (09:15) Wow. Aarati Asundi (09:16) He started going on jobs with his father and was getting paid an hourly wage. So by the end of high school, Vivien had a reputation of being a very good contractor and from a very reputable family business. Jyoti Asundi (09:30) Yes, he learned it the right way. Trained on the job, trained by experts. Aarati Asundi (09:36) Yes, he's got a name for himself. Jyoti Asundi (09:39) Nice. Aarati Asundi (09:40) Vivien saved all of the money that he got from his contracting work and he intended to put it towards college. He really wanted to enroll in Tennessee State College as a pre-med student. And so in the summer of 1929, between high school and college, he took on a full-time job to earn even more money. He joined the maintenance and repair crews at Fisk University, which was a Black liberal arts school. And towards the end of the summer, the foreman, Mr. Elders, pulled Vivien into his office and told him he was really impressed with Vivien's work and diligence, and he really wanted to keep him on until Christmas and maybe even beyond. So Vivien thought about it and he was like, well, I guess I can always register for college in the spring semester and it'll be really good to have the extra cash just in case there are unforseen textbook expenses or something like that. Jyoti Asundi (10:33) Yeah. Yeah. build some cushion. Mm-hmm. Aarati Asundi (10:37) Yes. So he agreed to defer his school plans for a few months and continue working. However, this decision turned out to have really huge consequences because in the fall of 1929, the American stock market crashed. And that triggered the start of the Great Depression. Jyoti Asundi (10:56) Oh he's going through the dep-... oh that's a hard time. The Great Depression was a very difficult time for almost all Americans. But then, particularly for Americans of color, you know, the economy being very short on jobs, whatever little was available was not definitely being directed towards people of color. For sure. Aarati Asundi (11:19) Yeah and it was really tough because also no one had money for repairs or remodeling houses in the first place. Jyoti Asundi (11:26) Yes, that's right. Aarati Asundi (11:26) So there weren't even enough contracting jobs to go around. Demand has decreased also. Jyoti Asundi (11:34) Yes. In every way they are being hit. Aarati Asundi (11:38) And so soon, Vivien realized that if he wanted to keep making money to add to his savings for college, he had to broaden his job search and go beyond contract work. Jyoti Asundi (11:49) Okay. Aarati Asundi (11:50) So he asked a friend of his named Charles Manlove who worked at Vanderbilt University if he could help him get a job there. And Charles was like, yeah, there is this one guy, Dr. Alfred Blalock, who is in charge of the experimental surgery laboratory and he's looking for a research assistant. Jyoti Asundi (12:12) That's the same Blalock you started the story with who was played by Alan Rickman. Aarati Asundi (12:15) Yes, Alan Rickman. Yeah, so Charles tells Vivien that Dr. Alfred Blalock is looking for a research assistant... Jyoti Asundi (12:24) Yes. Aarati Asundi (12:25) ...but he also warned Vivien that, "the guy was hell to get along with". But Vivien was like, I really need the money and it doesn't... Jyoti Asundi (12:35) I need the money, I need a job. Yeah, yeah. Aarati Asundi (12:39) Yeah, and there's not that many options out there, so sign me up, you know? Jyoti Asundi (12:42) Yes. Yes. Aarati Asundi (12:43) So Charles introduces Vivien to Alfred Blalock, and Vivien is surprised to see that Alfred Blalock is quite young and seems kind and normal enough. In his autobiography, he wrote, "Since Charles had told me he was in charge of the laboratory, I expected at the least a mature middle-aged person. Instead, Dr. Blalock looked more like a college senior or medical school student. He was very cordial and polite." Jyoti Asundi (13:17) So, Dr. Blalock has already risen high at a young age. So, he must be pretty skilled. Aarati Asundi (13:25) And also surprisingly normal after this huge warning from his friend Charles. Jyoti Asundi (13:30) Yeah, after all this drama. But we'll see. I'm waiting. I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. Okay. Aarati Asundi (13:37) That's smart, reserve judgment. Jyoti Asundi (13:38) Yes. Yes. Yes. Aarati Asundi (13:40) Also, another side note, Alfred was kind of obsessed with Coca-Cola and he kept a case of it in the walk-in refrigerator his lab. Vivien said he would drink four to eight bottles a day and would only offer you a bottle if you were a very distinguished guest. Jyoti Asundi (13:57) 4 to 8 bottles every day? Oh that's a lot of coke! Aarati Asundi (14:03) It's a lot. It's a lot. Jyoti Asundi (14:05) I think coke has some acid, I'm not mistaken. I'm thinking about the phosphoric acid that I've heard it contains. And I'm just thinking of what... Aarati Asundi (14:13) Oh yeah, it probably wrecked his teeth and stomach and everything. Jyoti Asundi (14:17) Yeah, wrecked his teeth and gut lining and everything. Oh goodness. Why do people do this to themselves? Aarati Asundi (14:23) I don't know, everyone has their weird idiosyncrasies. Jyoti Asundi (14:26) Yeah you choose your poison, man. Aarati Asundi (14:28) But I thought this was a fun... and that's another thing, like in the movie, they'll probably show him like drinking a Coke. And you don't make much of it if you don't know the background. Jyoti Asundi (14:38) That's right. This was in place of water. He drank coke instead of water. Aarati Asundi (14:41) Yes, yes, and no one's allowed to touch it except for him. Jyoti Asundi (14:46) Okay. Aarati Asundi (14:48) So Dr. Blalock needed an assistant because he was in charge of the experimental surgery lab and was having to spend more and more time dealing with patients. But he wanted to continue his research work looking into the causes of hemorrhagic and traumatic shock. And so he needed a research assistant to help him carry out experiments while he was busy with patients. Jyoti Asundi (15:11) Okay. Aarati Asundi (15:12) When Alfred first described the type of work that needed to be done, Vivien was a bit shocked because Alfred was using dogs as test animals. Jyoti Asundi (15:23) Oh wow, okay. Aarati Asundi (15:25) Alfred had a bunch of stray dogs that he got from the local pound that he kept in the lab. And for each experiment, a dog had to be anesthetized and then they would have to induce traumatic shock in the dog's leg by injuring it. Jyoti Asundi (15:41) Oh they are brutal experiments. Okay. Aarati Asundi (15:44) Yes. And then this would cause the leg to swell, the dog's blood pressure would fall, and eventually it would go into shock. And initially Vivien was very reluctant to experiment on dogs. Jyoti Asundi (15:55) Yes. Yes. Aarati Asundi (15:57) Which I totally understand. Jyoti Asundi (15:59) I understand too. Although I do understand the need for animal experiments, and I know it's a controversial topic, but because I am in drug development, I have seen the need for that transitionary phase where do experiments on, a petri dish or something and then you can't directly take that to a human. There are so many implications of different organs to each other and creating a situation that none of us expected. However, knowing that animal experiments are required, I am still of the mindset somewhat of a lower order of animals, say a mouse or a rat. Aarati Asundi (16:44) Yeah, yeah. Rather than a dog. Jyoti Asundi (16:45) But, but although that's, that's wrong thinking on my part. So there might have been a reason why dogs were the preferred animal for this particular experiment. It is possible that the data did not translate very well from a much smaller animal. It is possible. Aarati Asundi (17:05) Yeah initially, although Vivien was very reluctant to experiment on dogs, Dr. Blalock explained to him how important this research was and the fact that, dogs were required because they were the standard cardiovascular physiology model of the day, their responses to traumatic shock scaled really well with humans responses. And so... Jyoti Asundi (17:27) Yes. Yes. Aarati Asundi (17:29) And although it was and sad to do this... Jyoti Asundi (17:33) Yes, yes, better to do it in a dog compared to an actual human being. But those are your two choices. You either do them on dogs and then develop a good medicine or develop a good way of helping people with the surgery or whatever. Or you do it in actual human beings. Take your pick. It's like the devil's choice. Aarati Asundi (17:56) And this was one of the greatest challenges in medicine at the time. People who were suffering from traumatic shock or crush syndrome needed to be treated. And so like, for example, during an accident or traumatic event, if someone had a crushed limb, that had to be dealt with immediately. Jyoti Asundi (18:15) Yes. Aarati Asundi (18:15) And so doctors needed to know immediately how to relieve the pressure, whether it was safe to amputate the limb, and when that kind of injury happens, fluids are rushing all over your body, how does that affect your organs? All these things need to be studied and known so that if and when it happens to a person, there's no dinking around. There's no, you know, it's like, know exactly what to do immediately. Yeah. Jyoti Asundi (18:37) Yes, you need to know exactly how to intervene and bring them back. Yes. Aarati Asundi (18:43) And so after talking about this, Vivien understood the importance of these experiments and why it was important that these dogs needed to be sacrificed for the greater scientific good. And so he agreed to help. Jyoti Asundi (19:00) Yes. Aarati Asundi (19:01) So on day one, Dr. Blalock and some of the other lab assistants showed Vivien how to anesthetize a dog. And they walked him through how to put the dog in restraints, measure its weight, measure how much sodium barbiturate was needed, and taught him how to administer it. And so at the end of that, Dr. Blalock was like, okay, I've shown you how to do it once. So tomorrow before I get here, I expect you to have a dog ready for me to experiment on. Jyoti Asundi (19:30) Oh one time! He's going to teach it one time and you're supposed to pick up all the little nuances. Aarati Asundi (19:36) Yeah, and Vivien's like, are you serious? Like, I'm a carpenter and contractor. It's not like I have studied biology and have all this lab training even in general. Jyoti Asundi (19:46) That's right. Yes. Yes. Aarati Asundi (19:49) Like, I've been hammering nails for a living and now all of a sudden you expect me to just have this experiment set up and ready for you on day two? Jyoti Asundi (19:58) Ooh tough taskmaster. Aarati Asundi (20:02) Yes. But Dr. Blalock was very serious. He was like, yeah, get it done by tomorrow. And so the next day, with the help of some of the other lab assistants, Vivien did it. He got out a dog, restrained it, anesthetized it. And so then because of that, he was successful. The next day, Dr. Blalock showed him how to do the next step and then the next step. And then in a couple of weeks, Vivien was able to completely prep all of the experiments by himself and even assist in the surgeries. Jyoti Asundi (20:34) Oh wow. Wow. He's a very good student. Aarati Asundi (20:39) Yeah, quick study. Jyoti Asundi (20:41) For someone to pick up complicated sur-... these are surgical procedures, come on. Just because it's happening on a dog doesn't belie the importance or the complexity is happening. These are complex surgical procedures being conducted on the dog. And this carpenter contractor picks it up within two weeks. Aarati Asundi (21:02) Yes, very quickly. Jyoti Asundi (20:04) Amazing. That's pretty good. Aarati Asundi (21:05) So things are going along very well for about two months until one day Vivien made a small mistake. It was such a small mistake that he doesn't even remember what it was in his autobiography when he was writing about it. But Alfred completely lost it and he started screaming at Vivien. And Vivien just sort of stood there in shock until Alfred stormed out. And then the pieces click together and he was like, this must be what my friend Charles meant when he said that Dr. Blalock was hell to work with. Jyoti Asundi (21:44) Now he's seeing it. The other shoe has finally dropped. Aarati Asundi (21:48) Yes, two months later. And so he also told one of the other lab assistants what had happened and the lab assistant just kind of was like, yeah, he probably just had a really bad night last night. And that's what it was. So Vivien changed out of his work clothes and he went to Alfred's office and Alfred was sitting there super calm, like nothing had even happened. But Vivien was not about to let it slide. And he was like, yeah, that whole temper tantrum you just had, I'm not going to stand for that. I wasn't raised to take that kind of language from anyone. So I'm just going to go. Jyoti Asundi (22:25) Good for him. Aarati Asundi (22:26) Goodbye. Jyoti Asundi (22:27) Even though he needs the job, his self-respect, his dignity is important and he's not going to let this kind of behavior slide. Aarati Asundi (22:35) And it's not only that, like not only is the financial thing, you know, very difficult because we're in the middle of the Great Depression, who if he'll be able to get another job. But also remember that this is the 1930s and for a black man to talk to a white doctor... like a white man, but a white doctor like that. And for a black man to say to a white man, you can't talk to me like that. You cannot disrespect me like that. That was incredibly brave and courageous of him to do. Jyoti Asundi (23:04) Courageous, yes, yes. He had immense self-respect. That is beautiful. Not many people can do that. Aarati Asundi (23:11) Yeah, and, you know, it's not just white and black, but also Alfred Blalock is a white man with, very high social status. He's a doctor. He's the head of the surgical department, you know. Jyoti Asundi (23:20) Correct, correct, correct. Aarati Asundi (23:23) And Vivien is nobody. Jyoti Asundi (23:25) Absolutely nobody at this point. Yes, yes. Aarati Asundi (23:28) Yeah. And so really, it was amazing. But even more amazing, I guess for the times is that Alfred was like, you know what, you're right. And I'm sorry. And I swear I'll never do it again. And if I do, then you can leave, but please just give me one more chance. Jyoti Asundi (23:48) Oh that is very big of him actually. Aarati Asundi (23:50) Yeah, huge. Jyoti Asundi (23:50) That increases my respect for Dr. Blalock as well to be able to admit a mistake even though you're in a position of power and you can crush this person who is calling out your mistake. You can crush him like a bug because you have such immense power in every which way. But when you are called out on a mistake, you say, yes, I am sorry. And I will not do it again. Aarati Asundi (24:16) Yeah, and he was true to his word and he never yelled at Vivien ever again. Jyoti Asundi (24:20) Wonderful, wonderful. Aarati Asundi (24:23) Very shortly after Vivien started working for Alfred, the bank where Vivien had kept all the money that he had saved for college defaulted and wiped out all of his savings. Jyoti Asundi (24:34) Not fair. Aarati Asundi (24:35) One tough break after another. Jyoti Asundi (24:38) Wow. Aarati Asundi (24:39) And while Vivien did recognize that he was lucky to have a paying job, because many others were not in that situation, the loss of his savings brought to his attention that he was working under the title and pay scale of a janitor, even though he was actually doing a lab technician's job. Jyoti Asundi (24:58) Got it. Aarati Asundi (24:59) But of course, he's a black man living in the 1930s... Jyoti Asundi (25:02) Absolutely. Aarati Asundi (25:03) ...and that's all he's entitled to. Jyoti Asundi (25:06) Yes, there were a lot of the Jim Crow rules of segregation that were in place to ensure no black man could raise his head or even a black person. Aarati Asundi (25:18) Yeah. But by this time, Vivien had met and married his wife, Clara, and they had two young daughters, Olga and Theodosia. And so his janitor's salary wasn't cutting it. So he talks to Alfred and tells him that if he doesn't get a raise, he would have to go back to construction work to earn enough money to support his family because that was actually more lucrative. Jyoti Asundi (25:43) Yes. Aarati Asundi (25:44) By now though, Alfred had really come to rely on Vivien and his assistance in the lab. Jyoti Asundi (25:49) Yes. Aarati Asundi (25:49) So Alfred goes to bat for him and ultimately manages to get Vivien a raise from $12 to $17.50 an hour. Jyoti Asundi (25:58) Okay. Okay. Hmm. Aarati Asundi (26:01) And again, Vivien recognizes the importance of that, that even though Alfred hated dealing with administrative stuff and Vivien is this black man in a very prejudiced and segregated era, Alfred still fought to have Vivien stay. And so Vivien recognized that and respected that and realized that Alfred really does value him and need him. Jyoti Asundi (26:24) So they really have a very nice relationship with each of them respecting the other very well. Aarati Asundi (26:31) Yep. Unfortunately though, the loss of his savings meant that Vivien had to abandon his plans of going to college. Jyoti Asundi (26:39) So many casualties by this great depression that happened. Aarati Asundi (26:44) Mm-hmm. And so he committed himself to working with Alfred and providing for his family. Together, Vivien and Alfred made some incredible breakthroughs in traumatic shock and crush syndrome. They proved that after traumatic injury, people did not go into shock because of a buildup of toxins, which is what most doctors thought at the time. Instead, they showed it was because of fluid loss. And if you replace the fluid through a blood transfusion, you could operate on them more safely and give the patient a higher chance of survival. Jyoti Asundi (27:18) Oh that's a key discovery to understand how to operate successfully. Aarati Asundi (27:23) Yes, big one. This work was widely applauded in the medical community, and it became especially important for treating soldiers who had to have limbs amputated during the war. Jyoti Asundi (27:35) Yeah, that's right. Aarati Asundi (27:37) And so because of this, their work quickly gained recognition. Although only Alfred Blalock was really given credit, as he was the doctor and a white man. Jyoti Asundi (27:46) Yes, of course I was going to say that. I don't think anybody would have heard of Vivien yet. Aarati Asundi (27:53) No. In 1941, Alfred was asked to return to John Hopkins Medical School where he had completed his degree from, he was asked to join as the director of the Department of Surgery. He immediately requested that Vivien join him. Jyoti Asundi (28:09) Oh okay. They are inseparable pair at this point, like Batman and Robin. Aarati Asundi (28:15) Yeah, exactly. You can't have one without the other. Jyoti Asundi (28:18) You can't have one without the other Sherlock Holmes and Watson. Aarati Asundi (28:22) Yes. So after 11 years at Vanderbilt, Vivien and his family left Nashville, Tennessee to go to Baltimore. But Baltimore was even worse than Nashville in terms of racism and segregation. Jyoti Asundi (28:37) Oh I'm surprised! Aarati Asundi (28:38) Yeah, I was a bit surprised by that too. But apparently in Vanderbilt, Vivien had gotten used to walking around in a white lab coat. But at John Hopkins, so many people stared at him that he started wearing street clothes whenever he left the laboratory. Jyoti Asundi (28:58) Oh the thought of a black man in a lab coat was completely an oxymoron. They could not compute the two pieces together. Aarati Asundi (29:08) Yes. And he also was not allowed to use the main entrance, but he had to go around the back to the rear entrance to enter the laboratories. Jyoti Asundi (29:17) We see echoes of this in that movie, Hidden Figures, right? Where the bathrooms are segregated, they're not allowed to use the coffee maker in the common room, not allowed to use any of the common facilities, as if they would contaminate those common facilities. Aarati Asundi (29:36) Yeah. They're trying to say separate but equal, but it's not. Jyoti Asundi (29:39) It's not. It's not. It's a death by a thousand cuts. Aarati Asundi (29:43) But again, Alfred and Vivien had this really interesting kind of co-dependent relationship. Alfred relied heavily on Vivien and treated him almost like a true scientific partner. He listened to Vivien's ideas and trusted him to carry out experiments and record data properly while he was busy operating on patients or doing other administrative tasks. And he even turned down an offer to work at the Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit when they refused to hire Vivien alongside him. Jyoti Asundi (30:14) He cannot make do without him actually. Aarati Asundi (30:17) Yeah. Jyoti Asundi (30:17) He's indispensable. Vivien has made himself indispensable to Blalock. Aarati Asundi (30:22) But despite this, Alfred didn't list Vivien as an author on any of his research papers, even though Vivien was physically doing majority of the work. And Vivien for his part found the work to be extremely important and was getting to work on the cutting edge of medical procedures and working directly with the director of surgery at one of the best medical schools in the country, despite not having a formal medical degree and not having that background and being a black man. Jyoti Asundi (30:54) Yes. Aarati Asundi (30:56) And when Vivien once again ran into financial difficulties because he was back to working on a janitor's salary at John Hopkins... Jyoti Asundi (31:02) Yes. Oh I see. Aarati Asundi (31:04) ...he started working as a bartender many times at Alfred's parties, serving the same people that he had been teaching or working with like colleagues just earlier in the day. Jyoti Asundi (31:15) Okay. Hard life. Aarati Asundi (31:17) Yeah. So it's this weird dichotomy that's going on. Jyoti Asundi (31:23) Yes, absolutely. Such a knowledgeable man, but not receiving any financial remuneration for all his skills. Aarati Asundi (31:32) Yeah, and this again is like what that movie is portraying, that scene in the movie that I was talking about where he's going around waiting on all of the doctors and taking away their drinks. It's not really explained fully why he's doing that. And so knowing this context is, I think, important if you're going to go watch that movie. Jyoti Asundi (31:53) It is so bad. It is such an ironic thing. This is so unfair, actually. But this is how life treated Black people in those days. Aarati Asundi (32:04) Yeah, and eventually Alfred did fight to get Vivien raised to the proper job title and salary, which made Vivien the highest paid Black person at the university. But, you know, it's just a complicated relationship. It's really weird. Jyoti Asundi (32:19) No, no, can, I absolutely see that Dr. Blalock basically needs a clone of himself. He's got so many things going on. He's practically made Vivien his clone. Like you do this part while I do this part. Aarati Asundi (32:33) Mm-hmm. Jyoti Asundi (32:34) And Vivien was already good with his hands. He was a contractor. So he was probably extra skilled with these surgeries. Aarati Asundi (32:43) Yep. Jyoti Asundi (32:43) So a little bit of training and he got right into the groove there. And Dr. Blalock is not going to let that go away. It's like, I cannot make another clone like him. Aarati Asundi (32:53) But then at the same time, because of society and its rules, I can't give you the credit that you're due. Yeah. Jyoti Asundi (32:59) Yes, exactly. But it's... Again, if you look at it from Dr. Blalock's perspective, I think his hands were tied. He was doing whatever he possibly could. But what can he do? He is tied. This is the system. It's extremely systemic. Aarati Asundi (33:15) Yes, it's tough. Yeah, it's a tough one. Jyoti Asundi (33:19) So it took a while, it took a while after.... Aarati Asundi (33:20) Yeah. Yeah. And even then we're still not- we still don't have equality and everything, but yeah. Jyoti Asundi (33:24) We don't have it. No, no. This whole thing, I think we talked about this a few like watching a stock market graph where things get better and then they dip and then slowly they get better. So if you look at it from a distance, it looks like an upward curve. But then if you look closely, there's a lot of jagged ups and downs, ups and downs, ups and downs. And we are in a bad era right now also where people are really working hard to try to take it back to 1930. Aarati Asundi (33:55) Yeah. Jyoti Asundi (33:56) But hopefully, hopefully there is enough momentum to not take it there. We can only hope. Aarati Asundi (34:00) I hope so. _______________________________________________________________________________________ Aarati Asundi (34:07) Hi everyone, Aarati here. I hope you're enjoying the podcast. If so, and you wish someone would tell your science story, I founded a science communications company called Sykom, that's S-Y-K-O-M, that can help. Sykom blends creativity with scientific accuracy to create all types of science, communications, content, including explainer videos, slide presentations, science, writing, and more. We work with academic researchers, tech companies, nonprofits, or really any scientists. To help simplify your science, check us out at sykommer.com. That's S-Y-K-O-M-M-E-R.com. Back to the story. _______________________________________________________________________________________ Aarati Asundi (34:54) So now we are going to throw one more twist of diversity, I guess, into this partnership by introducing Dr. Helen Taussig. Jyoti Asundi (35:04) The lady who was arguing with Dr. Blalock in that movie scene that you opened this story with. Aarati Asundi (35:12) Yes. So she's a white woman and a doctor, and she's practicing pediatric cardiology at Johns Hopkins. She was particularly interested in the congenital heart defects called Tetralogy of Fallot, which are four specific heart defects. Jyoti Asundi (35:32) Okay. Aarati Asundi (35:33) First, the pulmonary valve is narrowed, which reduces blood flow from the heart to the lungs, so less blood can get to the lungs to be oxygenated. Secondly, there's a hole between the bottom two chambers or ventricles of the heart, which makes it harder for the heart to pump blood in the correct direction. Jyoti Asundi (35:56) Correct, correct. There's always a leak. And there's a mixing of the impure and the pure blood. Aarati Asundi (36:01) Yes, of the oxygenated and deoxygenated. Yeah. Jyoti Asundi (36:05) Yes, you never have enough oxygen because one with less oxygen is always getting mixed in with the more oxygen. Aarati Asundi (36:11) Yep. Thirdly, the aorta, which is the main artery that carries blood from the heart to the rest of the body, is in the wrong place, which again affects blood flow, especially to the lungs. Jyoti Asundi (36:24) Correct. Aarati Asundi (36:24) And then finally, the right ventricle, or the right bottom chamber of the heart, has a thicker wall, meaning that the heart has to work harder to pump blood. Jyoti Asundi (36:36) So you said this was called the Tetralogy of Fallot? Aarati Asundi (36:41) Yeah. F-A-L-L-O-T. Jyoti Asundi (36:43) Fallot. Okay. So this Tetralogy it's almost you're talking about it like a set of four diseases, but they are independent of each other... probably? Or they are all happening in the same. Aarati Asundi (36:55) No, they happen together. Yeah, they all happen together. Jyoti Asundi (36:58) These four things happen in the same child? Aarati Asundi (37:01) Yes. It's a set of congenital heart defects that occur at the same time. Jyoti Asundi (37:06) I see. All four of these things happen in the same child at the same time. Okay, I understand. Aarati Asundi (37:12) Yes. And these heart defects result in blood being shunted past the lungs, so the blood is not properly oxygenated. Jyoti Asundi (37:20) Yes, oxygenated at all. There is not much oxygen. Oh and that is why the baby becomes blue! Aarati Asundi (37:28) Yes! Jyoti Asundi (37:28) There you go. Aarati Asundi (37:29) They develop cyanosis, which is a bluish skin color. And that is blue baby syndrome. Jyoti Asundi (37:34) Got it. Aarati Asundi (37:34) And it can have a number of complications, including trouble breathing, seizures, failure to thrive, and death. Jyoti Asundi (37:39) Of course. Aarati Asundi (37:45) These congenital heart defects were considered hopeless cases. Jyoti Asundi (37:49) Yeah, I can't imagine. The heart needs a lot of fixing there. Aarati Asundi (37:53) And again, because we're so far back in history, people were like, how can anyone, let alone a newborn baby possibly survive a heart surgery? Because it's not like you can just stop the heart and then operate for half an hour and then restart it and the person will be fine. Jyoti Asundi (38:12) That's right. That's correct. Aarati Asundi (38:12) You know, it's not like unplugging replugging in a computer or a phone or something like that. So no one had even tried because they were like, if you can't do the surgery in under three minutes, the person's dead. Then now it's a baby and it's tiny and that's, you know, even, even harder. But Dr. Helen Taussig was like, let's just try. Why don't we just try to develop a surgical fix because everyone's too scared and all of these children are suffering because no one's even trying. Jyoti Asundi (38:43) Yes. Aarati Asundi (38:45) So in 1943, she approaches Alfred Blalock with the idea of finding a surgical way to fix these defects. Alfred is immediately excited by this challenge because so many people said it was impossible. So he was we could be the first ones to do it. Jyoti Asundi (39:01) Yes. Aarati Asundi (39:03) By "we", he obviously meant him and Vivien. Jyoti Asundi (39:05) Of course, yeah, that's an indispensable team at this point. Aarati Asundi (39:10) Yeah. So he first tasks Vivien with creating a blue baby model in dogs. So this is not easy because it's, remember, four separate defects all working together to create a scenario in which the baby has low enough oxygen to turn blue, but is still alive. Jyoti Asundi (39:29) Correct. There is restrictions in the flow, but not bad enough to die immediately. Aarati Asundi (39:36) Yes. So it's not just like, you know, causing traumatic shock where you can just hit the dog's leg with a hammer or something and cause a break. Jyoti Asundi (39:42) Yeah, it can't be blunt. It has to be more chronic and the trauma has to be titered to get the right amount to suffer but not die. Aarati Asundi (39:53) So after months of trying, Vivien finally succeeds. He creates the first animal model of cyanosis. Jyoti Asundi (40:02) Wow, okay, that's a tough one. The level of skill required to make that happen is incredible. Aarati Asundi (40:11) Now he has to fix it though. Jyoti Asundi (40:14) Of course, that was only step one. Correct. Aarati Asundi (40:17) Yes. Now they have to figure out how to fix it. So thankfully Alfred and Vivien already had a pretty good idea of how they could maybe do this. They joined the first artery that branches off of the aorta, which is supposed to be taking oxygen rich blood from the heart to the rest of the body and they attached that artery to the right pulmonary artery... Jyoti Asundi (40:39) Okay. Aarati Asundi (40:39) ....which takes oxygen poor blood to the lungs to pick up more oxygen. So effectively, because these babies don't have the proper amount of oxygenated blood in their hearts, instead of sending all that blood out to the rest of the body, some of the blood now goes back around to the lungs for a second time to get more oxygen. Jyoti Asundi (41:00) Got it, so they create a shunt. Aarati Asundi (41:03) Yes, it's not a complete cure, but it's definitely an improvement. So Vivien created this corrective blood shunt for the first time in a dog named Anna. Jyoti Asundi (41:15) Oh okay. Aarati Asundi (41:17) So Anna became the first dog to live through the surgeries and essentially proved that this was a viable fix for humans. When Alfred saw the perfect way that Vivien had sewed everything together to reconfigure the way that the blood flowed, he said, "This looks like something the Lord made". Jyoti Asundi (41:39) Oh well, Vivien also is something that the Lord made because without divine grace, you cannot have that level of skill in your hands. Aarati Asundi (42:49) So therefore it is a very appropriate movie title. Jyoti Asundi (42:53) Yes, Aarati Asundi (41:53) And fun fact, Anna became kind of a pet slash mascot in the lab Jyoti Asundi (41:59) Of course. Aarati Asundi (42:00) And her portrait is the only animal portrait hung at John Hopkins. Jyoti Asundi (42:05) Oh wow, Anna the dog who was the one with the first viable shunt. Aarati Asundi (42:12) Yes. Jyoti Asundi (42:13) But then you have only talked about one correction at this point. Aarati Asundi (42:16) That was their main thing that they did. So these four congenital heart defects are all working together make the cyanosis happen, the blue baby syndrome. And the main problem is that the blood isn't being oxygenated enough. So by creating this shunt to go back... Jyoti Asundi (42:34) Yes, so they are just doing it twice. It's like doing the laundry twice basically. Aarati Asundi (42:39) Yeah. So they haven't actually fixed the congenital heart defects per se. They've just... Jyoti Asundi (42:45) Just sending the blood in for a second round of cleaning is enough to stop the baby from being blue. The baby gets enough oxygen. Aarati Asundi (42:56) Yes. Yeah. Jyoti Asundi (42:57) Got it. Now I'm with you. Aarati Asundi (42:59) Since Vivien didn't have a doctorate, and probably because he's a Black man, he wasn't allowed to touch patients. So on November 29th, 1944, it was Alfred who tried the procedure for the first time on a 15-month-old baby named Eileen Saxon. Jyoti Asundi (43:17) Okay. Aarati Asundi (43:18) And so during the procedure, Vivien, who's really the one who invented the procedure... Jyoti Asundi (43:24) Knows- who really has the skill. Yes. Aarati Asundi (43:25) ...and knows actually what to do, he stood on a step stool behind Alfred and directed him the whole time because Vivien had practiced this procedure literally hundreds of times on dogs. Jyoti Asundi (43:38) That's right. Aarati Asundi (43:39) Whereas Alfred had really only done it once or twice. Jyoti Asundi (43:43) Oh my goodness, you know, I'm a little astonished because if I was the mother of that little baby, Eileen, I would say, fix my baby. Whoever needs to touch the baby doesn't matter. Please, color is immaterial, skill is all that matters in this situation. And I don't know if the parents had the option to say... Aarati Asundi (44:07) I don't know if they knew. Yeah, they might not have known. Jyoti Asundi (44:08) Exactly that's where I was going with it. I don't even know if the parents were told that the real skill lies in the hands of a Black man. This White guy who you think is the doctor who's going to save your baby is actually less skilled compared to the Black man who actually developed the entire thing. Aarati Asundi (44:27) But probably not because all the credit would have gone to Alfred Blalock anyway. It would have been like Alfred Blalock developed this, you know? Jyoti Asundi (44:33) Yes, that's right. Aarati Asundi (44:35) So it probably would have been portrayed to the parents like that in the first place. Like, you know? Jyoti Asundi (44:39) Aha, yes, that's right. Yeah and hidden behind the surgical masks, hidden in the operation theater was this other dynamic playing out where the Black man is guiding that this is how the experiment needs to be done. Aarati Asundi (44:53) Yeah, whispering in his ear. Like, this is what you need to do next. Jyoti Asundi (44:55) Yes, yes, this is what you need to do next. Aarati Asundi (44:59) Unfortunately, the surgery was not a complete success. Eileen lived for several more months, but she did ultimately end up passing away. Jyoti Asundi (45:08) Duh! It's like, if you had got the right hands on Eileen the first time, it would have worked. Aarati Asundi (45:12) Yeah, Alfred needed more practice, basically. Jyoti Asundi (45:17) Yes. Aarati Asundi (45:18) So Alfred operated again on an 11-year-old girl with complete success this time, and then he did it again on a six-year-old boy again successfully. Jyoti Asundi (45:28) Okay. Aarati Asundi (45:29) In May 1945, these three operations and the results were in the Journal of the American Medical Association. In the paper, the credit for the shunt went entirely to Alfred Blalock and Helen Taussig, with no mention whatsoever about Vivien Thomas. Jyoti Asundi (45:46) Not even in the acknowledgments? Aarati Asundi (45:48) Nope, nothing. And even in the press, credit went almost entirely to Alfred Blalock, which made him an instant legend in the field. Jyoti Asundi (45:57) I see. Aarati Asundi (45:58) Parents with babies that had blue baby syndrome were coming from all over John Hopkins. And doctors from all over the world were coming to see the procedure firsthand. But neither Alfred nor anyone at Johns Hopkins made any mention of Vivien, even though he was often present at the surgeries and even helped teach the visiting doctors the procedure. Jyoti Asundi (46:20) Oh he's just treated as background noise. It's like the secretary who brought the pen in for the big man or something like that. Truly horrible that way. Aarati Asundi (46:30) He was left out of group photos that were supposed to show all the doctors who had worked on making this breakthrough possible. And at the time, the procedure was called the Blalock-Taussig shunt, or BT shunt. Although nowadays, people have started calling it the Blalock-Thomas-Taussig shunt, or BTT. But that name change didn't officially happen until 2023. Jyoti Asundi (46:55) Oh it took that long? Aarati Asundi (46:57) isn't that ridiculous? Jyoti Asundi (46:59) I am actually still astonished that in spite of every effort to hide the truth, the truth did end up prevailing and finally was strong enough by 2023 to actually earn a name change there. The fact that they worked really hard to suppress it, it's like fire. You know, the truth is like fire, no matter how much you try to hide it, The fire will burn bright. Aarati Asundi (47:26) There was a lot of parallels I found between this story and Alice Ball's story, who I did in like episode four or something way back when, where.... Jyoti Asundi (47:36) Yes, I do remember her story. Aarati Asundi (47:39) Yeah, they just took credit for all of her work and tried to suppress that she had ever worked on, you know, this treatment for leprosy. But eventually, like, 50 years later, some historian was digging through records and found her name and figured out that she had done all this work, you know, so it's there. Jyoti Asundi (47:58) Incredible. So how did Vivien's truth come out? Do you know? Aarati Asundi (48:03) Well, I think he was kind always there. Like he wrote his autobiography and, you know, Alfred Blalock, if you asked him directly, he would, you know, say, oh yeah, Vivien's indispensable. But, you know, in terms of sharing real acknowledgement and stuff. Yeah. Jyoti Asundi (48:19) Yes, wow. Aarati Asundi (48:21) So this lack of any sort of acknowledgement finally caused a rift in Vivien and Alfred's relationship. Jyoti Asundi (48:27) Yeah, I can see that. Aarati Asundi (48:30) Yeah, Vivien hadn't really expected to be recognized by John Hopkins or the newspapers, but he didn't think that Alfred, who had worked with him for so many years up to this point, would completely fail to mention him anywhere. Not to mention that despite everything, Vivien was still struggling financially. Jyoti Asundi (48:48) Her is Blalock standing on Vivien's shoulders, rising up to the stars. And Vivien is still being ground into the dust. Aarati Asundi (48:57) Yeah, there was still a limit on how much he could earn because he was Black and he didn't hold a degree. And so in 1946, he decided that since he wasn't getting recognition or the opportunity to make more money, he wanted to return his family to Nashville and take up carpentry again and maybe pursue a medical degree for real. Jyoti Asundi (49:17) Okay. Aarati Asundi (49:18) Alfred was really upset by Vivien's decision and he tried everything to make Vivien stay. Ultimately, Alfred made Vivien the offer to be moved to an entirely new pay scale that had been created for people without a degree but who deserved higher pay. He also offered Vivien the chance to earn more money by working as sort of a pharmaceutical salesman through one of his friends, Dr. Ben Gaboff, who was president of the Ralph Winton Company and wanted a Black man to sell his company's pharmaceuticals to Black doctors. Jyoti Asundi (49:51) Okay. Aarati Asundi (49:52) But that sort of backfired because many of the doctors that Vivien met with recognized him. And he wrote in autobiography that they said things like, "you're being made a fool of" and "John Hopkins is making all of this money on the result of work that you've done. They have the money to pay you." Jyoti Asundi (50:11) Yes. Aarati Asundi (50:11) They're just not doing it. Jyoti Asundi (50:13) And also it's terrible that if you want more money, you have to work more hours. You have to work in Blalock's lab and then you have to also work as a sales rep. So basically give more of yourself to get more money. Aarati Asundi (50:27) Blalock doesn't have to do that. Yeah. Jyoti Asundi (50:29) Yeah, per hour pay is not increasing. So you're giving more and more of yourself in order to get more money. Aarati Asundi (50:35) And so all of this made Vivien just even more determined to leave John Hopkins. Eventually though, Vivien and Alfred negotiated a deal where Vivien stayed at John Hopkins and he ended up staying there for the rest of his career. So they figured it out. I don't know the actual deal or what it was, but presumably he made enough money enough to support his family. Jyoti Asundi (50:59) Right. Aarati Asundi (51:00) In 1950, now five years after the initial publication of the blood shunt, Alfred performed the 1000th blue baby operation. Shortly after this milestone, a doctor named Raymond P. Heimbecker came to work in Alfred's lab. Raymond worked with Vivien on, quote "experimental reversal of capillary blood flow". Raymond wrote a paper on this and listed both Vivien and Alfred as authors on the paper. Jyoti Asundi (51:33) Oh! First time getting recognition. Aarati Asundi (51:36) Mm-hmm. This was the first time, in 1951, that Vivien's name was published as an author alongside Alfred Blalock's. Jyoti Asundi (51:46) So just let me take a moment to digest this. So that means this was always a possibility. Blalock just didn't do it. Aarati Asundi (51:55) It kind of seems like that. It kind of seems like... Jyoti Asundi (51:57) Or is it that the times have changed enough? That's what I'm trying to sense. Aarati Asundi (52:01) Yeah, I'm not 100 % sure. It kind of seems like Alfred Blalock maybe could have fought harder for Vivien, but he maybe was scared to lose his position. He's really bought into the system of oppression. Jyoti Asundi (52:19) Or maybe he didn't want to give up some of the credit. That is also possible. Hmm. Aarati Asundi (52:23) Yeah, possible. It's almost like he's playing this game of, like, he recognizes Vivien is indispensable. And so he does just enough to keep Vivien happy and make him do whatever he can to make Vivien stay. But he takes all the credit and he's not willing to fight out in the open. He's not willing to fight in the newspapers, the media, and actually stand up in the light and say, this guy helped me. He's willing to do the dark back alley, like, hey, I talked to HR. We got you a little bit of a pay raise. Please stay. So I feel like perception was really important to him. Jyoti Asundi (53:07) And he was definitely using Vivien to be that rising star, Very sad, actually. Aarati Asundi (53:13) As time went on, Vivien became the laboratory supervisor responsible for managing everything that went on in the lab. Vivien used his position to hire and train more Black people as lab technicians, many of whom had initially been hired by John Hopkins in more menial service positions. Jyoti Asundi (53:32) He's doing his best. Aarati Asundi (53:34) Yes. Doing his best to lift up more people like him. Jyoti Asundi (53:38) Fellow sufferers. Aarati Asundi (53:40) He also took care of the animals and became resident surgeon to the pets of numerous members of the hospital, faculty and staff. Jyoti Asundi (53:49) Oh my goodness! I'm just thinking how... ⁓ this is- this is painting such a picture for me where all these staff in John Hopkins, everybody knows him obviously. If they are bringing their pets to him for surgery and getting the pets fixed instead of going to a regular vet, they know the truth. And yet they are like perfectly willing to see him being relegated to the background. You shed your light so that we shine. Aarati Asundi (54:20) Yes. Yeah. In 1963, Alfred retired from Johns Hopkins, but his successor, Dr. George Zudema, kept Vivien on in his position as lab supervisor. Alfred died in 1964 from cancer. His death seemed to profoundly impact Vivien because although Vivien did not ever directly address Alfred's death he put off starting any new research projects for several years. Finally, in the 1970s, Vivien began to get some formal recognition for his work. Some of the doctors that he had trained on the Blue Baby operation got together and commissioned a painting of Vivien, which was hung right next to Alfred Blalock's portrait. Jyoti Asundi (55:08) Oh! Now they are intertwined. You cannot talk of Blalock without talking about Vivien. That is good. Aarati Asundi (55:16) Yeah. And I like you were asking, how did he finally get recognition? It's like people knew. People did know. And then I think once it sort of started to become more socially acceptable, that's when he started getting his recognition. Jyoti Asundi (55:31) Yes, I think by 1970 definitely it was slightly better because those laws had been abolished that mandated segregation Aarati Asundi (55:40) In 1976, John Hopkins awarded Vivien with an honorary doctorate of laws because there were certain regulations against him receiving a doctorate in medicine. But now at least people could officially call him doctor even he still couldn't operate on a person. Jyoti Asundi (55:57) But hey, hey, that's- I mean for John Hopkins to actually bow down and say, okay, this guy made us millions if not billions. So we at least need to recognize something. Okay, at least they had that much of a conscience. Okay, that's good. Aarati Asundi (56:13) Yeah, and I find it funny that he's got a doctorate in law, like, randomly, whatever. Jyoti Asundi (56:17) It's okay. It's okay. I mean, whatever we can do. Aarati Asundi (56:21) Yeah, whatever we could do. Yeah. But it's just funny. It's just funny how these things work. Like this great contract worker, carpenter who became like this surgeon and then a vet has a doctorate in law, naturally. Yeah. Jyoti Asundi (56:35) Has a doctorate ⁓ in law. Okay, we'll take it. Aarati Asundi (56:38) Yeah, it's funny. It's just funny. Yeah. Jyoti Asundi (56:40) At this point, you know, because he has been the underdog for so long, any recognition feels okay. Aarati Asundi (56:47) And Dr. Helen Taussig attended the ceremony to support him. Jyoti Asundi (56:52) Oh nice. Aarati Asundi (56:54) Vivien joked that it only took him 37 years to get a degree out of John Hopkins, to which one of his colleagues, Dr. Norman Anderson said, "Yes, but look what kind you're getting. That's the deluxe model. That means you've already accomplished something. There are people around here with all kinds of degrees that never have and never will accomplish anything. You've already made a contribution." Jyoti Asundi (57:19) Oh that's a good one. Aarati Asundi (57:21) After receiving his honorary degree, Vivien was appointed to the faculty as instructor of surgery, where he taught for three years. Jyoti Asundi (57:29) Hang on, wait a second. So now he's actually becoming a teacher of surgery. Aarati Asundi (57:35) Yes, he's appointed to the faculty of John Hopkins. Jyoti Asundi (57:39) Faculty. He is a faculty member in John Hopkins. So he came in as a janitor, then Blalock fought a little bit and just enough to keep him like mollified a bit ⁓ and increased his pay grade to some sort of a lab and then a lab supervisor/lab manager and now he's faculty at John Hopkins nonetheless. Aarati Asundi (57:59) Yeah, he got a degree and a faculty...Yeah, and now he's a faculty member. Jyoti Asundi (58:04) That is good. I'm at least heartened that, okay, better late than never. That is my thought here. Yes. Aarati Asundi (58:10) Yes, yes, he got there. Unlike Alice Ball, he lived long enough to see recognition come to him. Jyoti Asundi (58:17) Yes. Aarati Asundi (58:18) He retired in 1979 and with some encouragement from his old students, he began writing an autobiography called Partners of the Heart. After a few years, Vivien developed pancreatic cancer, but he managed to finish his autobiography before passing away on November 1985 at the age of 75. Jyoti Asundi (58:41) Hmm. He died of pancreatic cancer. Aarati Asundi (58:45) Mm-hmm. Jyoti Asundi (58:46) His partner of the heart, Blalock, also died of cancer. Hmm. Aarati Asundi (58:50) Yeah. A few years after he died, a writer for the Washingtonian, Katie McCabe, published an article about Vivien Thomas called Like Something the Lord Made. It quickly gained national attention and film producers started contacting his family about getting film rights to the story. Jyoti Asundi (59:11) Oh I see. Aarati Asundi (59:14) In 2003, PBS broadcasted a documentary called Partners of the Heart, which won an award for best history documentary. And as I already mentioned, in 2004, HBO made a film called Something the Lord Made, which is what inspired this episode. Jyoti Asundi (59:31) Oh wow, Vivien truly did Lord's work actually. He- incredible for somebody to just plug in, in spite of getting no recognition, but change the lives of so many children. Aarati Asundi (59:50) Thousands, thousands of children. Yeah. Jyoti Asundi (59:52) Yes, that is truly Lord's work. Aarati Asundi (59:56) Also in 2004, the Baltimore Public School System opened the Vivien T. Thomas Medical Arts Academy, which prepares high school students for a career in medicine. And there are numerous other awards that have been started in his name, but I think I'm just gonna end it there and you can go to the Wikipedia page and look it up yourself if you're curious. Jyoti Asundi (1:00:17) Wow, this is such an apt and fitting story to talk about in this season of Valentines and hearts and... Aarati Asundi (1:00:28) And Black History Month. Jyoti Asundi (1:00:29) ...right in the middle of Black History Month. All I can say is I hope the world can do better by the Viviens of today and tomorrow. Aarati Asundi (1:00:37) Yeah. And I think the other reason I really liked this story was because, you know, Vivien never took a medical class, you know? He never went to medical school. And yet he was able to make such an amazing breakthrough despite everything stacked up against him. Not having an education, being a Black man living in Jim Crow era. And I'm like, you know what, if he can do it, then what excuse do people like us have? Jyoti Asundi (1:01:10) If you have that light shining in you, it will burst out. Aarati Asundi (1:01:14) Yeah, if you have the passion for something, just do it and you know... Jyoti Asundi (1:01:17) Yes, make it happen. Yes. Aarati Asundi (1:01:19) You'll change the world. Jyoti Asundi (1:01:20) Whether the recognizes at that moment or takes it, the world has to catch up to your brilliance. It's okay. the, the, opinion of the world does not matter. The fact that you are improving the world, that's what's more important. Aarati Asundi (1:01:36) Yes, absolutely. Thanks for listening. If you have a suggestion for a story we should cover or thoughts you want to share about an episode, reach out to us at smarttpodcast.com. You can follow us on Instagram, TikTok, and Bluesky @smartteapodcast and listen to us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. And leave us a rating or comment. It helps us grow. New episodes are released every other Wednesday. See you next time.