Aarati Asundi (00:12) Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Smart Tea Podcast where we talk about the lives of scientists and innovators who shaped the world. I'm Aarati and today we have our new host joining us for the very first time, Maria. She is my best friend for, I don't know, 25 years. How long has it been? 26 years? Maria Sisneroz (00:33) Uhhh, I think we met in 2002. That's wrong. We met in 2000. So yeah, 25 years. Aarati Asundi (00:43) 2000. Yes, 2000. Exactly 25 years. That's amazing. Yeah. We're so old. You're older than me though. Just saying. It totally counts. No, it totally counts. as you can tell, she's been my best friend for 25 years and she has very graciously. Maria Sisneroz (00:46) Dang, we old! Yeah, yeah, only eight months. It doesn't count. We were born in the same year. Aarati Asundi (01:05) agreed to host this podcast with me. So Maria, you want to tell the people, all our listeners about yourself? They already know a little bit about me, but what about you? Maria Sisneroz (01:15) Sure! I'm from the Bay Area, like Aarati. And we grew up together, went to school together in middle school, and then I ended up going to college at UC San Diego. I got a biology degree. I was originally pre-med, but I switched over to physical therapy. Aarati Asundi (01:20) Yep. Maria Sisneroz (01:35) So I have a doctorate in physical therapy like Arpita did. I was a physical therapist for seven years. At the end of my time as a physical therapist, I went back to school to get an electrical engineering degree at Arizona State University. I graduated in 2021, at which point I started working for the Department of Defense at the US Air Force, where I currently work. I've been working for the Air Force since 2021. And that's where I am right now. Aarati Asundi (02:03) Yeah. And you also dabbled in like a bunch of other random things along the way. Like, weren't you an accountant for a year or something? And then you went to culinary school. You did like a whole bunch of, I was, I was thinking the other day, like, what has Maria not done? Because Maria Sisneroz (02:12) Yeah! Yeah, I've done weird things. Like I've had a lot of odds and ends jobs. Like I've worked in food service like most people have. I used to work for the police department for a little while. I went to culinary school for about a year while I was doing my soul searching between college and physical therapy school. And I guess I forgot to say I'm actually currently getting a master's in electrical engineering from Naval Postgraduate School with an emphasis on electronic warfare. And then I actually currently go to school at a US Air Force Test Pilot School. Aarati Asundi (02:31) Mm-hmm. Yes. Maria Sisneroz (02:51) and I am studying to become a flight test engineer. So it's pretty cool. I get to fly cool planes I'm learning a lot about Aero, which I used to know nothing about. So I do feel like I'm kind of a jack of all trades. a little bit about a lot of different things. I may not be a master at anything, but you can ask me questions about really random, you know, pieces of information. I probably know a little bit. Aarati Asundi (03:07) Yes. Yeah, you're the person, you are the first person I ask about anything. If I have any problem, I'm like, what computer should I buy? I should ask Maria, you know, like what? Yeah, see, there you go. That's exactly what I'm talking about. So I'm, I'm a little bit intimidated in terms of picking people that you might not know about or like not know the subject about, because I just feel like you know a little bit about everything. And so I'm like, okay, well, you know what? Maria Sisneroz (03:15) and can speak to that. yeah, I used to work for Best Buy. Aarati Asundi (03:44) It's gonna happen. There's gonna be some stories where you know more about the subject than I do, even after I've researched it, or you're gonna tell me something that I don't know, and we're just gonna roll with it. It's gonna be great. Maria Sisneroz (03:56) Well, and to be fair, if you are actually looking at someone specifically, my assumption is that you're gonna know a lot more in depth than I know off the top of my head. and... Aarati Asundi (04:05) I might know about their personal life, but about their science, you're going to be like, my gosh, I learned this when I was interning at this. It's going to be something like that. So I'm fully prepared for that. It's going to be great. Maria Sisneroz (04:10) Crazy! I'm excited to learn, Aarati Asundi (04:20) Yeah. So in keeping with that theme, for this very first episode that you are part of, I wanted to choose somebody's story who I thought would welcome you, make you feel at home in the podcast before I went off on some really random tangent. So I was like, let's play to your strengths, which you have many of. But today, I will be talking about someone who is in aviation. Maria Sisneroz (04:47) Yay! Aarati Asundi (04:48) There you go. Her name is Roxie Collie Laybourne Have you heard of her? Excellent. So already one point to me. Thank you. So I heard about Roxie's story like maybe six months ago-ish when I was like looking up people that I wanted to tell Arpita about. But then for one reason or another, she just Maria Sisneroz (04:55) No. Aarati Asundi (05:16) kept getting, like her story just kept getting moved back. And so when I was looking for stories that I was like, I need to find a really good one for Maria's first episode, who should I do that's super interesting? I found her and I'm like, my God, she's perfect. She's like in aviation kind of, and her story is just really interesting. So are you ready? All right, let's go. Roxie was born on September 15th, Maria Sisneroz (05:38) I'm ready, let's do it. Aarati Asundi (05:43) 1910 in Fayetteville, North Carolina. Her grandfather owned a blacksmith shop in Farmville, but when cars started to rise in popularity, he pivoted his business into a mechanic shop. So that was interesting because for a while his shop was kind of like two halves. Like on one half he was shooing horses and the other half he's working on automobile engines. Maria Sisneroz (06:07) He's providing himself with job security. Aarati Asundi (06:10) Yes, exactly. He's smart. His son, Roxie's father, worked as a mechanic in the shop. so Roxie and her siblings grew up around car parts and machines. And speaking of siblings, Roxie was the oldest of 15, which included three sets of twins. Maria Sisneroz (06:33) my gosh, why would you keep having children? Aarati Asundi (06:34) Yeah. I don't know. Maria Sisneroz (06:38) Like, who wakes up and they're like, I just had three sets of triplets. You know what would be really cool right now? To have more children. Aarati Asundi (06:38) I... Yes. To have more kids. I don't even know. I've said this before, but I'm the older sister of one little brother and that was enough. And I know you don't have any siblings, but you have a ton of little cousins. You're the oldest of all your cousins. So can imagine there's some similarities, but the same. Maria Sisneroz (07:06) Yeah, I mean, I came from a family where like my mom has six siblings, so there's like seven kids. And I don't know how my grandparents did it. And then they moved here from the Philippines. like, at least in the Philippines, this is a tangent, sorry, we'll get back to her story. But in the Philippines, everyone has a maid. So like, even maids have maids in the Philippines. So like, okay, having seven kids is not that bad, because you have help from maids. Aarati Asundi (07:21) Yeah. No, no, no. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah. Right. Maria Sisneroz (07:33) But like once you come to the States, it's like, nope, can't afford a maid. You gotta take care of these seven kids and pay for these seven kids. like, I don't know how people do it. It's crazy. Aarati Asundi (07:36) Yeah. Yeah, and so now multiply that by 2 plus 1. I'm like. Maria Sisneroz (07:45) And then having like multiples because then you have multiple children you have to take care of at the same time who are like who can't do anything they're helpless while having other children. Aarati Asundi (07:51) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, yeah, that's crazy to me. So I'm guessing because there were so many kids for the parents to look after, they kind of just didn't, partly also because it's like the early 1900s, you know? Maria Sisneroz (08:07) Yeah Let them run around, it's fine, they won't die. They won't get kidnapped. Aarati Asundi (08:13) Exactly. Exactly. That's exactly what they did. So they just kind of let the kids do what they wanted. And so all the kids really love tinkering around with like the machines and the screws and whatever in the mechanic shop, which Roxie especially loved. She especially loved watching her dad in the shop. And around this time, she also developed a fascination for airplanes. So she would spend a lot of her time building model airplanes and designing aircrafts. because Maria Sisneroz (08:41) How old was she? Aarati Asundi (08:42) just grade school at this point, I think by designing aircrafts, it's just probably sketching them or drawing them, I'm assuming. I'm assuming it wasn't actually designing. Yeah. In the early 1900s, yeah. She was also very outdoorsy. So she would rather play baseball and run around. Maria Sisneroz (08:49) Okay. in the early 1900s designing aircraft. Aarati Asundi (09:07) rather than like do womanly quote unquote activities like sewing. She didn't really enjoy that. She would go out into the woods and she would load up some of her siblings in a wagon and take them for long hikes. And when she was outside, she would try to identify the birds and stuff that were flying around the farm. She had issues of Bird- Lore, which was apparently a precursor of the Audubon magazine. Bird-Lore. Sounds like, Maria Sisneroz (09:34) Bird lore. It sounds like a birder magazine. Like literally, like it sounds like you're looking through a catalog of birds. I know it's not that, Aarati Asundi (09:45) I think that's pretty much, well, I think that's pretty accurate because I think that she would use that to help her identify the birds that she saw. So she would just spend a lot of times. She was a total birder. Yeah. And she even remembers one time climbing up a pine tree to get a closer look at some owls. Maria Sisneroz (09:54) So she was a birder. That is oddly specific. She must really love those birds. Aarati Asundi (10:05) Yes. She really I kind of wonder if she was just interested in flight in general and birds were like something that could fly. yeah. So since her parents weren't very strict and kind of let the kids roam free, Roxie grew up to be very independent. After grade school, she decided she wanted to pursue a career in aviation. Surprise, surprise. She enrolled in, as a woman, yes, in the early 1900s. So she enrolls in Meredith College, which is an all-women's school in Raleigh, North Carolina, to do her degree in math and general science. At Meredith, she wasn't, I wouldn't call her exactly a rebel, but she definitely stood out among the other students because she was so energetic and outdoorsy. Maria Sisneroz (10:34) as a woman. Aarati Asundi (10:59) in her interests for the Meredith college yearbook, she listed airplanes, tennis rackets, and windy days. That was quite a trifecta. Maria Sisneroz (11:11) That's pretty funny. Aarati Asundi (11:12) yeah, windy days is not in my interest. I hate the wind by the way. Maria Sisneroz (11:17) Windy days are good though for flight. it, I mean, yeah, if it's not a powered flight, like you want wind so that you can have some lift and it can push you forward. it needs to be in the right direction, but like think about kite flying. Aarati Asundi (11:19) Are they? Maybe that's why she really liked him. Mm-hmm. Makes sense then. Yeah. Yeah, you don't want to be fighting against it. Yeah, yeah, makes a lot of sense. I was a bit thrown by the tennis rackets and windy days. Like these are your top three, okay, great. Maria Sisneroz (11:43) Honestly, like when I looked at those three, I was like tennis racket? Cause like wind, airplanes. Yeah. And I was like, but I guess it makes sense. Cause you said that she likes the outdoors. So like, that's the one thing that brings it together and makes her a whole human. Aarati Asundi (11:47) That was the one that was the outlier for you. Yeah. As opposed to just a nerdy scientist. Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (11:59) Yeah, exactly. It's like airplanes, wind and friction. She's rounded out. Aarati Asundi (12:06) Exactly. Yeah. She also liked tennis. She also liked tennis. So she has a personality. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Speaking of rounded out, she was on the track team too. And she was also the first student to wear blue jeans on campus, which I'm assuming was instead of a dress or a skirt And weirdly, she enjoyed mowing the college courtyard. Like that was. in multiple sources that was mentioned as like one of her interests or like exercises that she did. Maria Sisneroz (12:41) So like, this is random, again, aside. When you die, because we all have to die, like, and let's say you become someone like really famous. Aarati Asundi (12:46) Yes. Where is this going? Maria Sisneroz (12:54) Like, this makes me wonder, like, when people look back on my life, or like, when the, like, are they gonna be like, yeah, she really liked to mow the lawn, or like, you know, like, where are they, first of all, where are they gonna get that information from? Second of all, why are they perseverating on such a random thing? I mean, good for her. Aarati Asundi (12:58) yes. Yeah, yeah Yeah. I don't know, can only, yeah, I know. like, was the thing, that's why I mentioned it, because I was like in multiple sources that I was like, when I was researching her, I was like, this has been mentioned multiple times, I feel like I need to mention it. But the only like, yeah. Maria Sisneroz (13:26) Like, is this like how you like chocolate? that like, would someone be like, yeah, Aarati loved chocolate? Where it would sound random, but like, that's a big part of your personality. Yeah. Aarati Asundi (13:32) Exactly. But it's true. It is. It's a really big part of my personality. Yeah. So I kind of wonder if like, so the only like primary source material that I could find, which I admit I did not listen to, was she did an interview for this only because it's like behind a paywall you know, it was like this 14 hour interview that she did for the Smithsonian. like oral interviews, the recordings are there. So I'm assuming she mentioned it some point there, like about her college life, she probably said something like, I really enjoyed mowing the courtyard in her college, the quad or whatever. Maria Sisneroz (14:01) Mm-hmm. Yeah Like if you had to tell me top three things in your college life, what are the three things that really jump out to you? Aarati Asundi (14:22) bicycles because I went to Davis. So everyone was on bicycles. What else? Maria Sisneroz (14:25) Yeah. Yeah. Aarati Asundi (14:30) don't know, my classes, like if you're like, is this for my biography? Like when... Maria Sisneroz (14:33) No Yeah, like if you were talking about like little vignettes of like, yeah, what I really like, like in college the things that were memorable to me were like mowing the lawn. Aarati Asundi (14:47) the cows. The cows are really memorable. We had, I would look at them. Yeah, exactly. Well, my dorm was like right in front of the cows. And so, you know, yeah. Yeah, my dorm room was right there in front of the cows. So, you know, yeah. Maria Sisneroz (14:50) Would you do anything with the cows? See, this is gonna be where it's like, she really enjoyed looking at cows in college. Okay, that's fair. That's fair. Aarati Asundi (15:16) this is, you're right, this is coming off really weird. It's coming off like I'm obsessed with cows and bikes, but I'm totally not. yeah, what about you? Maria Sisneroz (15:31) or like which experience San Diego Aarati Asundi (15:31) Do San Diego, undergrad, undergrad, because we're talking about her undergrad, Maria Sisneroz (15:37) Okay, so for undergrad, like if I had to pull out three things that like were very memorable. Aarati Asundi (15:42) Mm-hmm. Maria Sisneroz (15:44) That is tough. I was about to say like wandering. So like I used to walk around in the middle of the night. This makes me sound really creepy. I really liked walking around in the middle of the night because like UCSD is a huge campus and like they have a lot of different like art fixtures all around. So we had like a talking tree and other... yes. Aarati Asundi (15:45) It's hard, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah! Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. really? I didn't know that about UCSD. Maria Sisneroz (16:11) Yeah, there's like a bunch of art installations throughout campus. That was one of like the first really organized dates I did with Laura in San Diego. She loved it. That's how I won her over. But it was at night. Yeah, it was at night. It's better at night. So probably like walking around in the middle of the night, because I had a tenant, I was kind of like a night owl. And so I never went to bed earlier than like two or three a.m. Aarati Asundi (16:14) Mm. really? Was it at night like a creep? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (16:40) So I just wander. That's probably the number one thing. Number two, skipping class. Because I'm the opposite of you. You went to every single class. I went to the bare minimum. I went to the bare minimum to know that I was going to pass. I learned that the hard way the first quarter of school. That there are certain classes you have to attend. And then if I had to pick a third thing, I probably would say... Aarati Asundi (16:40) Mm-hmm. Yeah. I did, but I needed it. Great. Yes. Maria Sisneroz (17:11) the beach because I went to UC San Diego. So walking down to the beach. I really like walking and wandering. like those kinds of things. That's what really sticks with me from college. Aarati Asundi (17:13) yeah. Makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. And I like how none of this is related like, I remember this time I was working in this professor's lab or something like that really stuck out. Maria Sisneroz (17:35) I mean, I didn't want to be morbid, that probably would have been the next thing, was killing all the mice. Because as a lab monkey, you probably have had interns, so you make them do the jobs that no one else wants to do that are easy, which in my case was killing all the mice that didn't meet the requirements for the experiment. Aarati Asundi (17:40) no. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That no one wants to do. Yeah. Yes. Yes. no. my gosh. That's so dark. my goodness. Maria Sisneroz (17:59) so like... anyway. Yeah, super dark. Aarati Asundi (18:07) But speaking of you skipping classes, yeah, well, kind of. She did have that streak in her a little bit. And that was like a great segue into my next point that she's like still really interested in airplane engines and just aviation in general. And she heard one day that Amelia Earhart would be landing Maria Sisneroz (18:11) Was she like me? Aarati Asundi (18:31) at a nearby airstrip. So she ditched class to go and watch Amelia land her plane and come out. And she was super excited by until she saw her school's gym teacher, who I guess also came to see Amelia Earhart, and recognized Roxie in the crowd ditching class. So she got in trouble for that. Maria Sisneroz (18:56) Worth it. Aarati Asundi (18:58) I would say so. And so safe to say, she and the dean didn't really have the best relationship. And Roxie one time said that she stole a pack of her dad's cigarettes just so she could smoke them on campus just to spite the dean, despite the fact that she didn't smoke. And that was the first and last pack that she ever smoked in her life. thought that was pretty. She was kind of like. Maria Sisneroz (19:22) So she was a rebel. In little ways. Aarati Asundi (19:25) A little bit. In little ways, yeah. So Roxie graduated in 1932 with her bachelor's degree, and then she applied to aviation schools, hoping that she could learn to become a pilot. But. she couldn't get in on account of her being a woman, which I was like, OK, yeah, it's like the 1930s. But I found it ridiculous because Amelia Earhart clearly is blazing that trail already. So I was just like, Maria Sisneroz (19:54) So it's interesting, because when you brought her up, and the the era that she was alive, I was very, shocked. Like that was I was like, a woman? She's a woman as a woman? Because like, even if you have a trailblazer, the amount of time it takes, you know, for the world to catch up, she's like, probably like the one and only it's kind of, I would probably liken it to like Joan of Arc. Like that kind of Aarati Asundi (19:56) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm, interesting. Maria Sisneroz (20:20) that kind of scenario where it's like, yeah, you have that one and everyone's like, yeah, it's so cool. It's like a woman, but then it's like, no other woman can get it. She's one in a million. We can't allow other women. Aarati Asundi (20:25) Yeah. Yeah, but then like 100 years, it still takes 100 years for another woman to like, do something similar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maria Sisneroz (20:34) to break that barrier too. And it's almost like it takes like, I'm not gonna say like three, but like a lot of people to actually break the true ceiling, if that makes sense. Aarati Asundi (20:44) Yes. Yeah. And so I think that's exactly what she was facing. It's like Amelia Earhart has broken that ceiling, but not for all women yet. So she's still just the one and only. And also the other thing is she wanted, so she was like, okay, I can't get into aviation school. Maybe I can get a job related to aviation and kind of like figure my way out, but it's the height of the great depression. And so even getting a job. in general, is difficult. And she's a woman, so it's even more difficult to get a job. So 1932, she graduated, and now she's looking for a job or something. She's looking to do something. She was born in 1910, so she's 22? Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (21:13) Thank What year is this? You said 1930? So she's like 18. Okay, I'm trying to make it because like I know the world the war is coming so I'm just trying to figure out what's going on. Go ahead Aarati Asundi (21:34) Yes. Yes. So actually, the war doesn't play that big of a role in this story, just FYI. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Maria Sisneroz (21:40) Yeah, we're too far, or she's too far away from it. And she's too old by the time it's 1930, so. I mean, she's not old. Her life's already down the drain. Aarati Asundi (21:48) Yes. She's 22, jeez. You're old. Yeah. Old maid. so she couldn't get a job, so Roxie fell back on her second favorite thing, which was birds, birds and nature. So she got an unpaid apprenticeship at the North Carolina State Museum of Natural History under Herbert Hutchinson Brimley. who was the director of the museum. And Roxie started out learning how to classify and arrange the museum's collections. And after two months, she started to learn how to do taxidermy. And it turns out she had a real knack for this. Like she really was very good at it. And she actually enjoyed it because she was like, I get to work with animals. But I was like, do you though? It's kind of dark again. Maria Sisneroz (22:42) You This keeps getting dark. Weirdly. Aarati Asundi (22:47) I know we keep trying to make it light and happy. But yeah, she was like not squeamish at all. And she was really able to pick the skill up quickly of how to very carefully cut open a bird, remove its organs and skeletons and stuff it and sew it back up without damaging any of the feathers. And it wasn't just birds. She also worked with like other animals like fish and deer. But she was just, I think, really had a knack especially for birds because it's such delicate work and you have to not damage the plumage or anything to make it look realistic. And she was just really good at that. slowly worked her way up to earning $900 a year, which in today's money is about And she also supplemented this with some commission taxidermy work on the side. Apparently, people would come to her with birds outside of the museum that they wanted stuffed for some reason, and she would take commissions, which I was like, OK, great. these jobs nurtured her curiosity about the natural world and she started taking zoology courses at the North Carolina State University while she's doing this. So she's building her career in natural history, building her skills in curating museum collections. And around this time in her late twenties, she gets married to a man named Paul Simpson. And I really couldn't find out much about how they met or what their marriage was like. they did have a son together, but The marriage didn't last long, and the two ended up getting divorced. And that's all I know. She ended up keeping the name Simpson for a while. That's all I know. So moving on from that little tangent, 1944, she has a child. Yeah, she has a son now. By 1944, so now she's 34, she's really built a name for herself. Maria Sisneroz (24:37) Hahaha So she has a child. Aarati Asundi (24:51) because of her skill with birds. And so it's not much of a surprise she was noticed by the secretary of the Smithsonian Institute, Alexander Wetmore. And he convinced Roxie to go to Washington DC where the Smithsonian Museum is located. And he was like, just come do a one year short appointment working with our taxidermist and curator and just help us. up some of the bird specimens that we have because the bird specimens at the Smithsonian Museum had been taxidermied like years ago. One was as far back as 1842. So that was like a hundred years ago. Yeah. At the point. And so, yeah, just wear and tear, they're all starting to fall apart. And so it's very, very delicate work that needed to be done because again, she has to like Maria Sisneroz (25:32) wow, like a hundred years before. Aarati Asundi (25:47) cut open these birds that have already been taxidermied once and restuff them without damaging any of the feathers or any of the delicate structures. So she goes to Washington, DC. She starts working at the Smithsonian on June 6, 1944, which, by the way, also happens to be World War II's D-Day. Not really related to the story, but just memorable. memorable date for Roxie's career to start. And she ends up staying at the Smithsonian as part of the US Fish and Wildlife Service for pretty much the rest of her career. Maria Sisneroz (26:24) Does that mean that some of the birds that are at the Smithsonian today are hers? Like she did them? Aarati Asundi (26:31) maybe. I didn't even think of that, but probably. Maria Sisneroz (26:34) because that was only like 80 years ago. Aarati Asundi (26:38) she kept on working until she died, basically, which was like in 2003, I want to say. So I would totally imagine that some of the birds there are her Yeah. No, I didn't even think about that. But I bet you're right. I bet they are. Maria Sisneroz (26:51) Sorry, I just was curious. One day we'll have to go to DC to go look at those stuffed birds. Aarati Asundi (26:59) Go look at some birds that she taxidermied. You're like, I know who taxidermied that bird. I don't know what kind of bird that is, but I know who taxidermied it. Maria Sisneroz (27:08) You Aarati Asundi (27:09) So early on, while she's at the Smithsonian, she also enrolled at the George Washington University to get her master's degree and graduated in 1951 with her degree in botany. So that was another kind of like interesting tidbit, I guess. Maria Sisneroz (27:25) So lots of natural sciences for her. Aarati Asundi (27:28) Yeah, Apparently her thesis was on mosses. So was like, OK, Maria Sisneroz (27:33) Interesting. Aarati Asundi (27:34) so life in DC was quite a change from the quiet rural life that she had in North Carolina. She never really felt at home in DC and she ended up living on a farm in Virginia because she was just more comfortable in kind of a quiet rural setting. Washington DC was much more urban. And so when she was commuting to work, she had to wear a hat and gloves and skirt and pantyhose. But then when she got to her lab, she couldn't really do all this gross taxidermy work all dressed up in pantyhose. So she kept hospital scrubs at work so that she could change. And she was also one of, if not the only woman doing taxidermy work, because that's obviously not a womanly skill, quote unquote. Yeah. So yes. Maria Sisneroz (28:21) Yeah, because women have to be dainty. Aarati Asundi (28:26) taxidermy and dead things are not dainty, decidedly. So because she's the only woman in the department and she's wearing pants, she was often mistaken for a man. Really quickly, people would just be like, oh, hi, sir. mean, ma'am? But Roxie said, quote, do the work. Maria Sisneroz (28:28) Yeah Aarati Asundi (28:48) Keep your mouth shut and they will respect you no matter whether it's a man or woman. That was my attitude and that's why I got along as well as I did in a man's world back in those days. So she really had this attitude of like, if you just do the work and you do it well, then people can't complain, Maria Sisneroz (29:07) Yeah, and think that honestly, that's kind of how it still is today. Like I will say in the work that I do, there are very, very few women. And it's kind of interesting. It's very much like a boys club sometimes. And so as a woman, first of all, it's very hard to even break through. So like, even if you have a job, like being part of that like group is very challenging. And so I've also found that the only way to like earn respect is to just keep your head down and Aarati Asundi (29:10) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You Maria Sisneroz (29:34) do good work. And then eventually people are just like, oh, hey, you actually know what you're doing, even though you're a girl. And it's like, I don't think that, yeah, it shouldn't matter. Aarati Asundi (29:36) Yeah. Yeah. Right? Yes. Yes. Right. I think that's exactly what. Yeah, I think that's exactly what she was like. If I become the best bird taxidermist, then no one can complain. Because if anyone needs that they need taxidermied, they have to come to me. Because I'm the only one who can do it. I'm the best one at it. So I'm just going to get really, really, really good at this one specific skill and become irreplaceable. That was kind of her attitude. Maria Sisneroz (30:09) And it keeps you driven too, I think, because it's hard to get beaten down. I can't even imagine during that time, with the inequalities between men and women. And I'm sure people were constantly telling her, you don't belong here, or go do a woman's job, go back to the kitchen, or whatever. Aarati Asundi (30:12) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or even just like giving funny looks, you know, that can just, yeah, it just makes you feel like you don't belong. And it takes a, yeah. And it just takes a very strong personality to be able to do that. So, yeah. But she had that. She thrived. She really honed her taxidermy skills. Maria Sisneroz (30:33) Yeah, 100%. But if you have this goal to just be the best, that's something that you can... It does, yeah. Aarati Asundi (30:50) She became one of the best bird taxidermists, if that's a word, taxidermists. Taxidermists, OK. She's the best bird taxidermist. And in doing this work, she became an expert at identifying feathers and where they came from, and not just which bird they came from, but where on the bird specifically it came from. So she was able to identify this is like a chest feather or a Maria Sisneroz (30:55) Is it taxidermist? interesting. Aarati Asundi (31:20) an over the wing feather or under the wing feather or whatever. She like because based on how the feather was shaped, she could guess what the function of the feather was and therefore she could guess where it was on the bird. and she truly, truly loved what she did. She would work long hours, sometimes even staying at the museum overnight, even though she really wasn't allowed to do that. she believed that if you truly loved what you did, you didn't need any time off. And so she, you know, stuck to that. Okay, so now we're going to fast forward a little bit. In 1956, Roxie got married to another taxidermist at the Smithsonian, Edgar G. Laybourne, who was working on creating models of reptiles and fish for the Smithsonian's Office of Exhibits. And they also had a son together. And again, I don't have any information really about their love story. So I was just like imagining them spending late nights taxidermying animals. and falling in love. my God. my God, that's so hot. my God. Maria Sisneroz (32:24) It's like, hey, you know what we could do tonight? Taxidermy. Yeah, I think it's like a different breed of person. Aarati Asundi (32:37) Yes, there's a picture of Edgar Laybourne painting or I don't know painting, but doing something with this massive snake skin. It's huge, it must be at least 20 feet long or something. He's brushing it or doing something with it. I'm like, that must have been such a turn on for her. Yes, exactly. They did. Maria Sisneroz (32:58) I know. Yeah. want to marry that guy. Did they stay married? Aarati Asundi (33:07) So that was true love, And yes, exactly. Late Nights at the Smiths. There should be a movie about it. That'd be a fun one to brainstorm movie titles OK, and so now here's where we get to the turning point in Roxie's career. So we're going to take a little. Maria Sisneroz (33:10) Love of the Smithsonian. I know. Aarati Asundi (33:30) Detour, little side trip here to Logan International Airport in Boston on October 4th, 1960. Eastern Airlines flight 375 is all set to depart. There are 72 people on board, including crew headed for Philadelphia. At 5.39 PM, the aircraft is cleared for takeoff, but just six seconds after liftoff, engine one dies. Engine two and three also momentarily died but recover, but the aircraft itself could not recover and it crashed from a height of 200 feet into Winthrop Bay. Only 10 people survived this crash and only because they were crash thrown from the plane as it sunk into the water and so they were picked up by boats on the bay. the whole crash happened in less than a minute. So most of the passenger and crew were strapped in and they sank when the plane sank into the bay So 62 people died Yeah She was not no this this happened separately No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no this this this this happened. She's at the Smithsonian She's working and this is happening in Boston. Maria Sisneroz (34:33) Jeez, and she was on that plane? Okay, I'm like, well, I'm assuming she survived. Okay, got it. you like kind of imagining this is like, just cause we keep talking about the Smithsonian, did you think about Bones at all? Aarati Asundi (34:55) Mm-hmm. yeah, it is kind of like that. Maria Sisneroz (34:58) Like, like, and now you're bringing up something random and I'm like, I feel like we're in a bones episode. Aarati Asundi (35:05) We are in a Bones episode. So this is why like this, I think that's part of the reason I even heard about her because like I look at, you know, stuff like that. I'm like into all these like murder podcasts and like, you know, crazy things happening, that kind of thing. And so I heard about her because I was like reading an article on one of these sites that's like, have you heard of this crazy thing that happened? And like this lady who like, did this stuff. And I'm like, no, wait, what? And so it's like, so a lot of articles that I read actually start with this plane crash, because this is like the moment that her career changes forever. And this is the reason we even know about her is because of this plane crash. So FAA investigators. Maria Sisneroz (35:49) Okay. Aarati Asundi (35:53) pulled up the wreckage so that they could try to determine what was the cause of the crash. And when they looked in the engines, in engines one, three, and four, they found bird feathers. Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (35:56) What is it? Was it a bird? Okay, so I need to tell you something really interesting, because I'm curious if this is where these specific tests came from. So in my classes, they're obviously like aero classes, one of our more recent classes was propulsion. And honestly, I never thought I'd have to know this much about an engine. I know so much about engines now, how they work and like the different types of engines. So when they do engine, like propulsion test, they do like, they just have to like check engine failure, what happens if like, Aarati Asundi (36:08) Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Maria Sisneroz (36:35) one of the blades in the fan breaks off, like what the damage is. One of the tests they do is like hitting a bird. So they literally have like a chicken gun or like a bird gun and they have it rotating and then they like, yeah, we watched a video. It was really cool. And they will literally shoot a bird. I can't remember how heavy it is. Like I think like a 10 pound, don't quote me on that. They shoot a bird with like a special bird cannon gun thing. Aarati Asundi (36:38) Mm-hmm. really? Yeah. They have a bird gun? my gosh! This... Yeah. my God. Maria Sisneroz (37:05) into the engine to see how how first of all how it responds so like does it explode like what happens is it recoverable like those kinds of things because that's all part of the spec of an engine Aarati Asundi (37:10) Yeah. Yeah. Yes, that's exactly where this came from. That's exactly where we're going. Yes, absolutely. Yes, yes. Yeah. my gosh, I didn't know they had a bird gun though. I mean, that makes sense. But like, I'm just imagining like a little mini cannon. Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (37:29) Yeah! someone's listening to this, you need to look up a video. Go on YouTube and look this up. It's super cool. And actually they have a whole video with all the different types of tests they do. Because they have the entire engine set up. Some of are huge. But they'll have the engine set up and they'll even set up charges to make a disconnect. Like a blade of a fan disconnect and like Aarati Asundi (37:37) I will. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (37:58) go into the engine because they need to characterize the damage, right? And like, is this going to destroy the plane or is it only going to destroy the engine? Like, Aarati Asundi (38:01) yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. my gosh. Yes. Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (38:08) you know, how much is it going to be destroyed? So anyway, videos are cool. Aarati Asundi (38:10) Yeah. No, that's that's so cool. I'm definitely going to look up this video because I want to see a fake bird getting shot into an airplane engine. What do mean it's a real bird? Maria Sisneroz (38:20) It's a real bird! I'm pretty sure it's chickens. I need to look this up. I can't, I think so. I think it might be like a big chicken. I think it's a little more official than that. like, cause they want something that's pretty substantial. Cause honestly, like when we're flying right now, I know way too much about bird strike right now. Cause we're in bash phase which means that there's a higher than normal bird. Aarati Asundi (38:26) Like a frozen chicken or something? you just get it at the grocery store or something? Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (38:49) activity in the area. So we have to like follow specific protocol when we're flying because there's a higher risk of bird strike like hitting birds. In fact, one of my classmates hit a bird last week. Yeah, it's pretty Yeah, in a a T-38, in a trainer. No, we were doing tower flyby and it's very low to the ground. So your risk of bird strike is even higher. So you're you're only like 100 feet above ground level. Aarati Asundi (38:51) Okay. Mm-hmm. Right, right. Are you serious? In a plane? Like Were they taking off or landing? Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (39:19) and you're going like super fast. think he was, I think it was the test point he was going like 400 knots, 450 knots. Yeah, really fast. Bird strike. But the funniest part is that he called for bird strike and then they have to like do, they call a chase aircraft, which is like an aircraft that's gonna come and like take a look and make sure that you can land. The plane is landable. Didn't see anything. He landed. Maintenance checked. There were no feathers. There was no blood. Aarati Asundi (39:19) Yep. Yep. wow. my God. my God. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (39:47) There is no sign that they had hit a bird and so now we have this whole joke that the bird wasn't real. The alleged bird that you hit. Aarati Asundi (39:53) my God. Like, yeah, the alleged bird that you hit. He's like, I swear guys, I did hit a bird. Sure. Yeah. my gosh. That's amazing. Yeah. yeah. No, but you're all over this episode now. Like this is exactly all where we're going. This is great. Maria Sisneroz (40:04) It's like you just didn't want to get us our test points. But yeah, no, it's actually quite common. Anyway, sorry, kind of funny, interesting story. I'm just gonna send you a link and I want you to watch the link while we're talking to each other, because I wanna see your reaction. It was chickens, I wasn't wrong. Yeah, it's chickens. Aarati Asundi (40:29) it is? How come I can't click it? Oh, here we go. Here we go. Here we go. I got it. I got got it. Okay. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Oh my God. Maria Sisneroz (40:33) about your... No. Aarati Asundi (40:46) my god, that's crazy. Maria Sisneroz (40:49) Isn't that cool? Aarati Asundi (40:50) That's, that's insane. Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (40:50) Yeah, I just wanted you to, like, you don't have to watch the whole thing, but I just wanted you to see, they literally throw a chicken. Aarati Asundi (40:56) The chicken gun! my God. my goodness. It's so crazy because the airplane engine looks so big and the chicken looks so small in comparison and yet it totally blows up the whole engine. Maria Sisneroz (41:16) It can. So like, but now you have to have a process where it shouldn't fully destroy the engine. you want it to like, maybe it can cause like a, I don't know, some, some like issue with the engine, but you don't want it to explode. Anyways, isn't that cool? Aarati Asundi (41:17) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. yeah, yes, yes. That's crazy, man. my gosh. That is so cool. No, that's so cool. Maria Sisneroz (41:38) Okay, cool. Sorry, I just wanted to, I wanted to show you that. Okay, cool. Aarati Asundi (41:41) yeah. So in the engines of this, flight that crashed in Boston, they found bird feathers and they had at the time no idea what to do about that. So they just like packaged up the evidence and they sent it to the Smithsonian and they were like, can someone there figure out like, I don't know what kind of birds these were or like how they ended up in the plane engines and these boxes landed right on the desk of Roxie Laybourne. So there you go. Maria Sisneroz (42:11) It's Bones but it's birds. Aarati Asundi (42:14) Bird bones. Exactly. So there's no protocol for Roxie to follow, really. It's like, here are these boxes. Please help us do something. Figure it out. And they were just really vague about what they wanted or what they wanted her to do. And so Roxie got to work figuring out how exactly she was going to wash and prep the feathers for identification. And this was really complicated because, you know, plane engines are like filled with grime and dirt and oil. And then, of course, like the bird has died a grisly death. So there's all sorts of blood and like mangled bird parts that she has to kind of wash off the feathers. But if she used a detergent that was too harsh or used too much water, then it could damage the feather. And again, the feathers are already probably in really terrible shape because they literally went through a plane engine. So it's not the best scenario. So Roxie developed basically a protocol for how to remove the oil and debris from the feathers so that she could clean them and then look at the feather under a microscope. And she drew the structures that she saw on an index card. And then she would take that card to the museum's reference section of their collection and look for feathers with similar structures. So she's just doing this all by hand because they don't have computers, obviously. yeah, yeah. So she's just like, OK, let's just go through the whole collection and see if I can find feathers that look similar, that have a similar microscopic structure to this feather. Maria Sisneroz (43:49) You don't have a database, yeah. my gosh, it's forensic taxidermy. excuse me, ornithology, because it's just birds. don't need, doesn't need to be a taxidermist. Aarati Asundi (44:05) It is. It's forensic ornithology, actually. So she, yes. It doesn't have to be, yeah. But that's great because she developed this field. I didn't know that this was a field, but she is the creator of the field of forensic ornithology. Maria Sisneroz (44:21) Yeah Aarati Asundi (44:29) Okay. So she's, yeah, so she's trying to identify what species of birds caused this plane to go down. Maria Sisneroz (44:29) Sorry. Back to wherever you were. She invented. Aarati Asundi (44:38) Eventually, she was able to identify that the feathers belong to starlings, which are these really like actually small to medium sized birds, so much smaller than a chicken. And so upon takeoff, Flight 374 had flown into a flock of starlings, some of which had been sucked into the airplane engines causing them to shut down. It was the deadliest bird strike in history and It still was, I think until just recently on December 29th, 2024, when Jeju Airline flight 2216 crashed in South Korea. And so I don't think that's definitive that it was caused by a bird strike, but people, yeah. People have reported seeing a flock of birds being ingested into the right engine and then the right engine failed, but- Maria Sisneroz (45:21) I was about to say, that was Bird Strike? Aarati Asundi (45:31) I don't think there's like an official, like it's come out that that has been, that was because of bird strike that that plane crashed. So yeah. So Roxie identified these birds as starlings, which was something that most people had thought would be impossible given that state that the feathers were in. Maria Sisneroz (45:40) Interesting. Aarati Asundi (45:53) even like other bird experts are like, you're not going to be able to do this, but she did. And in so doing, like I mentioned, she developed from scratch the field of forensic ornithology. so in forensic ornithology, If you have feathers that you're trying to identify where they came from. First, you have to identify when and where the feathers were collected so that you can narrow down what type of birds would be in that area at that time of year. Next, you have to look and see if you have any whole feathers and wash them gently with soap and water to look for colors or patterns, because that can be obviously really helpful. And at this point, if you still haven't been able to feathers, then the next thing you need to do is pull out a microscope. and look at the fluffy tuft down at the base of each feather where the feather connects to the bird. And this is called Plumulaceous Down. I hope I said that right. And the microscopic structures here are what is different for each bird. And so at that point, it's a matching game. At that point, you can look at those Plumulaceous Down structures and go look at your catalog and see where the microscopic structures match to identify the bird. and at one point in Roxie's career, she had just done this so often that she just had it in her head. Like she knew just by looking what bird it belonged to. She didn't have to like really go and compare anymore. So she just had like this Rolodex of like thousands of birds, plumulaceous down microscopic structures in her head. Um, it is, it is. Maria Sisneroz (47:31) a skill. Aarati Asundi (47:34) So after solving the Boston plane crash in 1960, Roxie becomes kind of famous in FAA circles. Anytime there's a bird strike, they would send the evidence to Roxie to help them identify what bird had been hit, because she's literally the only person on Earth who can do this. she succeeded in that, developing a skill, yeah, that only she can do. And this led to some important findings about the birds themselves, which I thought was interesting. So for example, in 1963, a plane struck a mallard flying at over 21,000 feet, which was amazing to people because they didn't even know that mallards could fly that high. So they learned something new about those ducks. Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (48:19) Interesting. Aarati Asundi (48:22) Um, and the highest bird strike Roxie identified, which is actually still the record today was a Ruppell's Griffin vulture that was struck over the Ivory coast at 37,000 feet. And yeah. Maria Sisneroz (48:36) 37,000? Wow, that's very high. Aarati Asundi (48:42) the plane, I believe, was fine in both of these cases. In 1966, Roxie was recognized by the Air Force Bird Strike Committee with a Lifetime Achievement Award. Yeah. However, unfortunately, that same year, her beloved husband Edgar passed away from cancer. Maria Sisneroz (48:52) Hey! Aarati Asundi (49:02) Roxie was heartbroken and grieved quietly for months. And it took her a long time to heal. But slowly she came to the realization that with her husband gone and now both of her children grown up, no one was depending on her at home anymore. So she just could dedicate herself entirely to her work. So she was like, OK, small silver lining. And this was just as well because by this time Roxie was starting to come into very high demand. So aircraft engineers started sending requests to the Smithsonian to work with Roxie and other ornithologists to figure out how they could prevent bird strikes from happening and or engineer planes so that they could survive bird strikes if they occurred. So we were talking about that, right? At the time, the FAA estimated that there were about eight Maria Sisneroz (49:49) Mm-hmm. Aarati Asundi (49:54) thousand bird strikes a year and Roxie in her heyday was identifying birds for up to 1000 cases a year. Just like two to three a day. It's insane. Based on her work, they were able to identify the types of birds that were most often hit and how to either prevent it from happening by developing bird management plans around airports since most bird strikes happen during takeoff or landing. Maria Sisneroz (50:02) Dang. Aarati Asundi (50:21) Or they would help engineers make aircraft engines safer. So for example, they strengthened the fan blades in the airplane engine so that birds couldn't jam the system. Yeah. So there are a lot more bird strikes today. think it's closer to, I saw one source that said 20,000 bird strikes per year, just because air traffic has increased so much since the 1960s. And today, the Smithsonian processes up to 9,000 cases per year. Yeah. So she really started this field. Maria Sisneroz (50:49) Wow. I didn't realize that there was like so much of an emphasis on identification. I thought it was just like, there's birds. Cause like when we do our scan after, I mean, I don't do it. I'm not a pilot, but I'm like a backseater. So like when we do our scans around the plane, oftentimes they're like, bird guts? Nope. Okay, cool. Move on. And it's like, cool. We just, it's more of an indicator that maintenance needs to like check, you know, the integrity of whatever the part is or clean it up. Aarati Asundi (50:58) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, nope. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Maria Sisneroz (51:23) versus like, what kind of bird did we hit? Was it a starling? Or like... Aarati Asundi (51:23) Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. No. But I think a lot of it is probably just like, bet in some cases, in some areas, they probably know what kind of birds live there. And so it's kind of like, yeah, we know that in this area, you probably hit this, and it's really more easy to identify. But I think a lot of the times, it's probably like, we're still trying to gather data on what kind of birds these are. Do their migrating patterns change? How do we prevent this from happening? I think, yeah, it's just like a lot of data that they're still collecting and trying to figure out how to prevent this from happening. Maria Sisneroz (51:55) Mm-hmm. No, it's just interesting. That makes a lot of sense. Well then also like, I could see the cases where it does extreme damage. Like in terms of as you're specing design of like the next generation of engine, for example, you'd want to know what type of bird hit you because then you know like what the size was, you know, how they fly, what might have been going on at that time so that you can design your engine better. Aarati Asundi (52:11) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And if it's something unexpected, you know, it's like, wait a minute, we hit a starling, but I thought they didn't fly around this time of year, then you'd want to like, no, you give that information and try to figure out like, wait, why was a starling flying around right now? Or, you know, so a lot of that, I think. Maria Sisneroz (52:41) Yeah, exactly. for Science. Aarati Asundi (52:52) Yes. So now we're getting really into Bones territory. Roxie earned such a reputation that she was even called in by the FBI a few times to help solve a podcast. It is bones. She's literally bird Bones. So there's a podcast called Criminal by a Phoebe Judge that did an episode on Roxie, which I will definitely link in the sources. for this episode on our website, but they were talking about how there was like a case where a woman shot her husband in the head and used a pillow full of feathers as a silencer. So Roxie was called in to help identify or like match the fragments of feathers that were found in the person's head and then the feathers that were in the pillow to show that they were a match and that, you know, that was indeed what was used as part of the murder. And then there was another cold case of a woman who had been missing in Alaska for 10 years. The FBI thought that the woman had been murdered in a van and dumped in the ocean, but they never found her body. So inside the van that they thought she was murdered in, they found feathers. and then like a few years later, they found the woman's down jacket that she had been wearing at the time she was murdered. it washed up on shore. So Roxie was able to match the feathers in the van with the feathers in the woman's jacket to show that she was actually murdered in the van. Maria Sisneroz (54:24) Wow. Aarati Asundi (54:25) Yeah. really hated working on violent cases though, which I thought was interesting. Like she did not enjoy Yeah, dead people are... Maria Sisneroz (54:34) I mean, it makes sense. You work with dead animals for a lot of your day. And then at this point, it's like, yeah, I'm also working a lot on feathers. And then it's like getting involved in the human element, especially when it's like, my gosh, you know what it reminds me of? Criminal minds. And Garcia, you remember how she loved her job, but she hated the gruesome part? I don't know, I keep on referring to different TV shows, but these are the things I think of. Aarati Asundi (54:42) Yes. What? my gosh. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. TV shows. Yeah. Yeah. But clearly, is part of why I thought it was such a good first episode for you, because I'm like, my god, it's so interesting. And it's right down our interests. Yeah. So she hated working on violent cases. She did really like testifying in court in general. She really enjoyed. Maria Sisneroz (55:06) shit. It is! Aarati Asundi (55:21) providing irrefutable evidence and flexing her science muscles and being like, yeah, this is evidence that I produced. And there were some cases that were nonviolent that she was called in, where people were under suspicion of poaching protected birds or buying or selling feathers from protected birds. And Roxie enjoyed working on those cases a lot more. So as I said, Roxie basically invented the field of forensic ornithology. She was the only one in the world who could do what she did. But she also felt it was important to share that knowledge. She said, quote, I've been given the opportunity to learn. And to me, I feel that when you give an opportunity, why then you have a responsibility to share it with somebody else so that you can have them build on your knowledge and go further forward than you could by yourself. And it's like we're at the bottom of the ladder. And with each student, you get a little higher. And you never get to the top, but you keep climbing. So I liked that. Maria Sisneroz (56:20) I do too. Because I feel like a lot of scientists have a kind of the opposite thought. Like they want to be in a silo and they want to keep it to themselves. not everyone's like this, but I have seen it a lot where it's like, this is mine. I can't let it go. And like, because if someone becomes better than me at it, then it's no longer my thing. And it's like, there's really no value in that because you will eventually be gone. And also, Aarati Asundi (56:27) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Maria Sisneroz (56:48) new tools are being developed that you might not know about. Like, let's spread the wealth and knowledge. Yeah. Aarati Asundi (56:51) Yeah, let's share the knowledge, yeah. And I think that's exactly where she was coming from. She was like, I'm getting older and I cannot let this field die with me. So I need to start spreading this knowledge. So in the mid 1960s, she started teaching graduate students how to work with birds and do taxidermy and identify feathers. She would have these workshops at the Smithsonian where she would teach graduate students or anyone really who's interested in taxidermy, how to like work with birds and do taxidermy. One of her students, Beth Ann Sabo, assisted Roxie with the criminal investigation she was called in for. And in 1990, the Fish and Wildlife Service started the National Wildlife Forensics Laboratory in Ashland, Oregon. Yeah, you used to live close by there for a while. So yeah. Maria Sisneroz (57:48) Yeah, 20 minutes. Aarati Asundi (57:49) And Sabo... Yeah, I was gonna ask that, yeah. Like, I didn't... I visited you there all the time. We probably drove past The National Wildlife Forensics Laboratory. Maria Sisneroz (57:49) I had no idea that that existed in Ashland. Probably a. Now I want to know what is it called again? my gosh, it's on Main Street Aarati Asundi (58:09) really? So we definitely went past it, like a couple of times. You probably went past it all the time. Maria Sisneroz (58:11) Yes. 1490... Well, we wouldn't have driven past it directly so we didn't we didn't miss it, but it is very close to like everything That's that's Aarati Asundi (58:21) OK. OK. OK. Good to know. Good to know. Yeah, that's crazy. So Sabo was placed, her student, Bethann Sabo, was placed in charge of the ornithology program at the National Wildlife Forensic Laboratory. And because of that, she could just now take on all the criminal violent cases. So Roxie was really happy about that because she didn't like dealing with that. She's like, great, you go do that. And I also should mention today that most bird strike identifications or bird identifications related to crimes can be done by DNA sequencing today. But there still are times when the bird remains are in such bad condition that Roxie's method is still needed. So I think it was like at least 20%, 25 % of the time, we still use Roxie's method. Yeah. So Roxie retired in 1988 after spending 44 years. It was a good year. Excellent year. Maria Sisneroz (59:24) That was a good year. In case you guys didn't know, we were born in 1988, dating ourselves. Aarati Asundi (59:33) Yes, we were. We were both born. Yeah, we were both born in 1988. Dragon babies. So she retired the year we were born after spending 44 years at the Smithsonian, but she never really actually stopped working. The Smithsonian granted her emeritus status, allowing her to stay on as a research associate and continue to work literally until like the day she died. she taught two more students her methods, Carla Dove, who is now in charge of the Smithsonian's Dove. Yes, Dove. D-O-V-E. I think, I think there's, nope. I think there's a lot, there's a lot of jokes about that. I can only imagine. Carla Dove is now in charge of the Smithsonian's Feather Identification Lab and Mary Heacker. Maria Sisneroz (1:00:06) my gosh, dove. can't make this up. Aarati Asundi (1:00:26) I hope I'm saying that right, a wildlife forensic scientist also working at the Smithsonian. Yeah, and that pretty much wraps up Roxie's story. She continued when she died from a pulmonary edema at her home in her farm in Virginia, and she was 92 years old. But because she taught all these students, her legacy lives on. And like you said, I bet there's some birds at the Smithsonian that she had a hand in taxidermying. So yeah, that's her story. Maria Sisneroz (1:00:59) Mm-hmm. was really cool. I like that. Now I have to go and talk about her at school. Aarati Asundi (1:01:04) That's super interesting. You have to tell everybody about her. Maria Sisneroz (1:01:10) Like you want to know like how they came up with this method or why they came up with this method. Aarati Asundi (1:01:14) Yeah. Do you want to know who was responsible for this? Do you know why we shoot chickens into? Do you know whose idea that was? Yeah. How was it, your first episode? Thanks. Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (1:01:22) chickens ins into engines. You did a great job. That was actually really fun. And thank you for picking a topic that is relevant to my studies right now. I think that's a really good segue into participating in this podcast. Aarati Asundi (1:01:46) Yeah. this year, I'll be telling more of the stories because I know your time is limited this year. With flight school and everything that you're doing, you're going to just jump in when you can. So that'll be great. But I'm glad that my first story was a pretty good one. Maria Sisneroz (1:02:04) Your all of your stories are good. Aarati Asundi (1:02:05) Yeah. thanks. Thank you. Thanks for listening. If you have a suggestion for a story we should cover or thoughts you want to share about an episode, reach out to us at smartteapodcast.com. You can follow us on Instagram, TikTok and Blue Sky at Smart Tea Podcast and listen to us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. And leave us a rating or comment. It really helps us grow. New episodes are released every other Wednesday. See you next time.