Aarati Asundi (00:00) Warning for our listeners, this episode has mentions of suicide. Maria Sisneroz (00:17) Hi everyone and welcome back to the Smart Tea Podcast where we talk about the lives of scientists and innovators who shape the world. What's up? Aarati Asundi (00:26) How's it going, Maria? Maria Sisneroz (00:28) Well, still going. ⁓ Aarati is still at my house. She's essentially a squatter. Just kidding. Aarati Asundi (00:31) Excuse me? I have been helping you for the last week and this is the thanks I get. I see how it is. Maria Sisneroz (00:44) Yeah she actually is doing me a huge favor. I'm in school, which I've talked about a lot, but it's a very intense program. And so my wife just had knee surgery and can't get around and I have a two year old son. Aarati Asundi (00:58) and two dogs and a cat. Don't forget about them. Maria Sisneroz (01:01) Yeah, because the dogs especially are kind of high maintenance. But she came and she helped. My wife has been like, very limited in her mobility for about six weeks. So we've had family kind of come in and then Aarati, this is Aarati's week to help us Yeah. Aarati Asundi (01:20) You've had a good community around you in terms of just having your parents come one at a time over the weeks and then friends. I was like, have a really good support system who are willing to drive all the way out into the California desert in the middle of nowhere to a military base, Maria Sisneroz (01:37) I know. We've been super fortunate too, cause like a lot of my classmates and some of my old coworkers have been like super helpful bringing us meals and like, yeah, it's been a huge help. ⁓ Aarati Asundi (01:48) Yes, there's a nice food train going. They've been bringing home cooked meals. It's amazing. Maria Sisneroz (01:54) I know, it's been great. So, Aarati is the last in the train. So this is going to be the sixth week post-op for Laura. Aarati Asundi (02:03) I've had the easiest week that means because Laura has been able to kind of hobble around on crutches and chase after Kai a little bit, your son Kai. But yeah, I'm glad I was able to come down here. Today I'm going back. I'm going to drive back because I miss my dog, Kyro . And I need to take him off the hands of the rest of my family. So yeah. Maria Sisneroz (02:31) Yeah, but thank you for coming out. Thank you to your family for taking good care of Kyro while you were gone. Aarati Asundi (02:37) Of course, and it's always fun to hang out with you, you know, even if it's... There's something about doing stuff with your best friend, it's like even when you're going grocery shopping or doing something like the most mundane, stupid, boring thing, it's fun, because you're just with your best friend. Maria Sisneroz (02:54) Yeah, it is very nice. Aarati Asundi (02:55) So it's been nice. Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (02:59) Anyway, so what's the story today? Aarati Asundi (03:02) Well today we'll be talking about the Northern Lights and I asked you if you had any Northern Light t-shirts and you didn't have any of those specifically. It's a tough, tough ask, but you do have an Icelandic t-shirt. It says something in Icelandic. Maria Sisneroz (03:19) Yeah. Yeah, so my mom and her boyfriend, they went to Iceland like last year, two years ago, and they saw the Northern Lights up there, but they have like this expedition vehicle. So they like drove around and camped and they got to see it like a couple of times, which was pretty awesome for them, because I know Laura's parents went at the same time and unfortunately did not get to see the Northern Lights, which was a bummer. Yeah, that really sucked. Aarati Asundi (03:44) Aw shoot, they missed it. Maria Sisneroz (03:47) They did. But anyway, this shirt is from Iceland. And we looked up the translation because I couldn't remember what it meant anymore. And I'm not even going to try to say what it says. It looks like it says "Eg tala ekki islensku... Aarati Asundi (04:01) Nice. Maria Sisneroz (04:02) but it means I don't speak Icelandic, which is the case. Aarati Asundi (04:05) Clearly, clearly, because... Maria Sisneroz (04:05) And that's why what I said was probably butchered. ⁓ Aarati Asundi (04:09) Yeah, because every Icelandic person right now is like cringing and covering their ears. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. But yeah, so that's today's story. Today's story, we're going to be talking about Kristian Birkeland, who... Kind of funny, like my brain was... when I was writing this story, his first name Kristian starts with a K and then his last name is Birkeland and so my mind just kept on wanting to call him Kirkland like from Costco, the Costco brand. Maria Sisneroz (04:39) I like Costco. Aarati Asundi (04:43) Non-sequitur or like it has nothing to do with anything. anyway, He is the scientist who figured out how the Northern Lights were being caused. And the reason I was interested in this story is just because I haven't seen the Northern Lights in person, but I've thought they're really beautiful, really pretty. And I never really understood how they worked or like, you know, what was causing them. So I wanted to learn a little bit more about that. And so I was like, well, maybe I should do an episode on the person who discovered know how they worked. And then his life turned out to be super fascinating as well. So I not only learned the science but I learned about his life which is really interesting. So if you're ready let's get into the story. Maria Sisneroz (05:31) Okay, let's go. Aarati Asundi (05:33) Okay, so Kristian Birkeland was born as Olaf Kristian Birkeland, but he later in his professional life just dropped his first name and went by Kristian. He was born on December 13th, 1867, and he came from a long line of Norwegian farmers, but shortly after his father Reinhardt married his mother Ingeborg, which I did look up how to say these names, by the way, because I was like... Hopefully I don't butcher it too badly. So Reinhardt married Ingeborg and they both moved to an area called Kristiana, which is Oslo today. father set up a small merchant shop dealing with imports and exports and business was good. They were able to afford a maid to help with chores and the apartment they lived in was quite modern for the time. It had electricity and indoor plumbing and everything. So. Maria Sisneroz (06:13) Okay. Aarati Asundi (06:30) They were pretty comfortably middle-class, like everything's going well. So Kristian was Reinhardt and Ingeborg's second son. His brother, Tonnes, was two years older than him and was a very active, like athletic boy. Tonnes loved to go hiking and liked to compete in sports. But in contrast, Kristian was much more quiet, physically weaker. He tried to avoid any family hiking trips, and he got sick pretty often. However, generally he was a happy kid, very smart. liked to stay home and read, and he was particularly interested in learning chemistry, math, and physics. he would use that knowledge as a kid to play pranks on his schoolmates. So he would use the science behind things friends. Maria Sisneroz (07:23) Are you gonna tell us examples of these pranks? Aarati Asundi (07:26) I don't have examples of his pranks, unfortunately. Maria Sisneroz (07:27) Aw, come on! Aarati Asundi (07:28) I know. was looking. I was like, can we have some examples? But I couldn't find any. I wish. Maria Sisneroz (07:36) That would be funny. Aarati Asundi (07:38) It would be funny. I don't know how some of these historians get their information. They're like, he liked to play pranks on his schoolmates. Maria Sisneroz (07:44) ...using chemistry and it's like, what do mean? Aarati Asundi (07:47) Like what? Yeah. And I was like, I was also trying to think of what science, chemistry, physics tricks you could play. Like if you had a knowledge of basic chemistry and physics, what pranks would you play on your friends? Like what would you do? Maria Sisneroz (08:03) I mean, you could do a baking soda vinegar kind of thing where like maybe if they sat on something, it would like open up a bladder... Aarati Asundi (08:11) It would explode or something. Maria Sisneroz (08:13) and then all of a sudden explode under you or something like that. Aarati Asundi (08:17) Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (08:17) That's why I was like super curious. Like, what would you do at that age that would be like funny? Aarati Asundi (08:21) Yeah, I know. I was also trying to think of that. I was just like, I guess I'm just not creative enough with my knowledge of chemistry and physics. I don't know what you would do. Maria Sisneroz (08:30) My chemistry knowledge is just bad. I barely made it through that class in high school, but got better at college, but now I'm trying to think. Aarati Asundi (08:37) Yeah, I'm just not the playing, you're the playing pranks kind of person, but I'm just not. Maria Sisneroz (08:42) I am, that's why I wanted to know. Aarati Asundi (08:47) Yeah. So you can, just so you could maybe save that away for a future date, future opportunities. Maria Sisneroz (08:52) Well, no, because like, honestly, I feel like those types of things are the best way to learn to because you will never forget, right? Aarati Asundi (08:57) Mm-hmm. Mm. You'll remember it. Yeah, you'll remember it. Maria Sisneroz (09:00) And so I'm thinking like that might be fun for Kai as he gets older. And I'm trying to start explaining like, or as I start to explain like scientific concepts related to chemistry or physics. Aarati Asundi (09:12) Mm-hmm. Yeah, it makes it fun. Maria Sisneroz (09:14) It does, yeah. Aarati Asundi (09:15) Yeah, I really wish I could have found some examples, especially since this was the 1860s. And so I don't know what materials he had readily available to him. So I don't know. I wish I knew. He especially developed an interest in magnets though, which I also was like, ooh, what did he do with magnets? Which I feel like there's a lot of potential. I'm just not creative enough to come up with anything. Maria Sisneroz (09:40) Depends on how strong of magnets. And what else you have? Aarati Asundi (09:45) True, He actually saved up his pocket money to buy some magnets and that was the first purchase he ever made. So he was serious about it. Maria Sisneroz (09:54) What's the first purchase you ever made? If you remember. Aarati Asundi (09:58) That is a good question. I bet it was something boring like candy or food. Like I have a huge sweet tooth and I bet it was something like that. Because I didn't really get an allowance when I was a kid. Maria Sisneroz (10:11) Neither did I, but I would sometimes get money on birthdays. Aarati Asundi (10:16) I would never get money on birthdays. It's not something that's really done in my family, I guess. I don't really remember saving up money per se for anything. Even when I do want to make a big purchase or wanted to make a big purchase, my mom and dad would be like, ⁓ we'll get that for you. I'm like, thanks. Sure, I'm not complaining. I've been very lucky that way. What about you? Maria Sisneroz (10:44) So I used to get money and it's funny because one of my very clear memories as a child was I had one of those little metal money boxes. Not like a piggy bank. I had an actual money box. Which is funny because now I always want to be treasurer. Even when I was in elementary school it was always my goal to be treasurer. I didn't want to be president. I don't want to be vice president. I want to be treasurer. Aarati Asundi (11:06) Interesting. Maria Sisneroz (11:07) And I feel like I took on that. I've taken on that role so many times in different contexts. It all started back then because that money box was just so fun and I had like a little key that would keep all of my belongings in there but then I lost my key and that's how I learned you can't lose the key to the box because you can't open it if you don't have a key. But I would save my money because I very early on understood that the amount of money that I had was not like a lot of money and I didn't want to waste my money on something stupid so... I think my first purchase was a cassette tape. I'm aging myself. Oh no, no, it was a CD. Oh, thank goodness. It was a CD. Aarati Asundi (11:44) ⁓ CD, okay. Yes. Maria Sisneroz (11:45) Okay, sorry. Whew, thank goodness. So it was a CD and this is very embarrassing, but it was the Aqua CD Aquarium. You know the song with Barbie Girl on it? Aarati Asundi (12:00) Yes, yes. That was your first purchase? Maria Sisneroz (12:03) That was my first purchase that I can remember. I remember that was I was so excited and it and I bought the CD and I brought it home. I listened to it on repeat. I know all the songs on the album still because that was one of the first albums I listened to Aarati Asundi (12:15) That's so funny. Maria Sisneroz (12:16) and I was just so proud that I was able to buy it myself. Aarati Asundi (12:17) I do not peg you as a Aqua girl at all. Maria Sisneroz (12:21) Well, I mean, that is kind of like electronic-ish, if you listen to it. Aarati Asundi (12:25) Kind of. Maria Sisneroz (12:25) It's like poppy electronic. I mean, if you listen to it, it's a little bit of a precursor to that. Aarati Asundi (12:32) Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (12:32) But, Aqua. 10 out of 10 that. And then I also really like Spice Girls, because everyone liked Spice Girls at that time. Aarati Asundi (12:39) Yes. Maria Sisneroz (12:39) But I would sit in my room and play Crash Bandicoot on PlayStation and listen to the Aqua Aquarium album on repeat. Aarati Asundi (12:46) That's amazing. Maria Sisneroz (12:46) That was like second or third grade or third or fourth grade. Yeah. Aarati Asundi (12:50) Amazing. I was probably reading a book from the library, which I did not buy. Maria Sisneroz (12:56) Yeah. Aarati Asundi (12:58) That's how my family rolled. It's like, can you get it for free? Maria Sisneroz (13:01) Anyway, back to your story. Sorry, that was a... Aarati Asundi (13:04) So back to the story. So both Tonnes and Kristian attended a private high school where they had the opportunity to take science and modern language classes. Modern meaning not Latin, but French and German. Kristian really enjoyed his science and math courses and his math teacher, Professor Elling Bolt Holst... Maria Sisneroz (13:26) Bolt! Aarati Asundi (13:27) Elling Bolt Holst. Maria Sisneroz (13:31) Boltholst. Aarati Asundi (13:32) Bolt is his middle name and Holst is his last name. Maria Sisneroz (13:36) I see, I see. Aarati Asundi (13:38) So that's his math teacher and he found him to be an especially exceptional student. Kristian did so well in his classes that he actually ended up graduating from high school a full year ahead of his older brother, Tonnes, and with the highest possible academic marks in science and math. I feel like that would create some sort of complex with the older brother. It's like you're two years older, but you graduate a year later than your younger brother. Maria Sisneroz (14:09) But maybe he was good at other things. Aarati Asundi (14:11) Probably, I mean, like we said, he's very athletic, very sporty. Maria Sisneroz (14:15) Athletic. Aarati Asundi (14:16) So yeah, maybe he placed more importance on that kind of thing. So while Kristian was in high school, at the age of 18, he published his first three papers on geometry under the guidance of Professor Holst. He also handwrote an 18 page paper with all sorts of mathematical equations that apparently were so impressive that when Professor Holst saw it, he asked Kristian to be his teaching assistant. And then later on in his life, Kristian wrote, quote, "No other man has ever touched me as deeply as Elling when I was young, and I'm thankful to have known him. He was such a special person." end quote. But Kristian didn't start as a teaching assistant to Elling Holst right away. After graduating high school, Kristian decided to enroll in the Royal Frederick University to pursue a higher education. And this was not very common back then because a high school degree back then was basically like a bachelor's today. So going to any university was like going to grad school. So not a path that most people took. Especially I think in late 1800s. He spent about a year studying chemistry, which he was also really, really good at. And then he went back to studying math under Elling Holst and was employed as his assistant to help pay his way through the rest of the university. Maria Sisneroz (15:39) Wait, what year was this again? Aarati Asundi (15:43) This was... let's see, I'm not sure what year. He was born in 1867 and he's 18 right now. Add, do the math. Maria Sisneroz (15:50) Okay, so Maxwell's equations were already out. Aarati Asundi (15:53) Yes, and we're gonna be talking about that like right now. Well, very soon, very soon. Maria Sisneroz (15:58) Great segue. Aarati Asundi (15:59) Great segue. So he was employed as his assistant to help pay his way through the rest of university. Kristian also did really well in physics, but he was a bit disappointed on how little his professor, Oskar Emil Schiotz, talked about electromagnetism because like you said, this is a very new field at the time and Kristian was super interested in it. Still, he ended up deciding to get his degree in physics and he graduated at the top of his class even though he was the youngest student. And by the way, his brother, Tonnes, graduated from university one year later like a normal person with a degree in medicine. Maria Sisneroz (16:43) So he actually was also smart. Aarati Asundi (16:45) He was, yeah, he just did it on a normal timeline. Maria Sisneroz (16:49) Yeah, like the rest of us plebeians. Aarati Asundi (16:52) Yeah, exactly. Well, I don't know if we can put you in that bucket, but yes. You graduated from undergrad one year early, so.... Maria Sisneroz (17:00) I did. Aarati Asundi (17:02) Yeah, so you're a little bit more like Kristian, I think, So for the next couple of years, Kristian went back to teach at his old high school, but continued to work as a research assistant to Elling Holst and Oskar Schiotz doing experiments on radio waves. Soon he was offered a scholarship to go study abroad, so he left Norway and he basically spent the next two and a half years hopping all around at different universities and collaborating with a bunch of really amazing people. So he first went to Paris to study under the famous French mathematician Henri Poincaré. Maybe? French people? Maria Sisneroz (17:41) Sure. Sounds good. Aarati Asundi (17:42) Yeah? Great. Okay. Maria Sisneroz (17:44) I have a French neighbor. I could ask him how to actually pronounce that. Aarati Asundi (17:47) Yeah, maybe I should have done that. Maria Sisneroz (17:49) Oh yeah, he's like literally right across or right next door! Aarati Asundi (17:52) Yeah, he's literally right next door. I could have popped over and been like, hey, can you just speak into the microphone? Can you just say this? Thanks. So then Kristian then moved to Geneva, Switzerland, where he worked with Edward Sarasin and Lucien de la Rive on geophysics and problems surrounding electrical discharge. And he co-authored two more papers here with Sarasin. Next, he went to Bonn, Germany, where he met Philipp E. Lenard. And longtime listeners of the podcast may remember Lenard from episode 21 on Wilhelm Röntgen. Wilhelm discovered X-rays using Lenard's cathode ray set up. Although right now in the timeline, that hasn't quite happened yet, but it's the same Philipp E. Lenard that we're talking about.So we're gonna get there though. We're gonna get to all of this physics stuff. Ok so continuing on Kristian's journey, he then went to Leipzig and here I read a kind of funny little anecdote. So in Leipzig, he reunited with one of his university colleagues, Sophus Lie. And for a while, everything was good. Like these two friends, they're reunited. They're having a good time in Germany until they start talking about the differences between German and Norwegian academic institutions and educational infrastructure. And Sophus basically said that Germany was okay, but their education system wasn't as good as Norway's. To which Kristian said, you know, it's not that bad. And then Sophus got really mad saying that all the traveling that Kristian had been doing had made him too international and that he was no longer patriotic. He was like no longer a true Norwegian. So they had a really big argument over this and they actually ended their friendship for a while because of this. Maria Sisneroz (19:48) Wow. Aarati Asundi (19:49) Yeah, I know, right? It's like, you're not patriotic enough. I can't be friends with you. Maria Sisneroz (19:51) Also, I'm just realizing I should have just worn my Norway t-shirt. Dang it. Aarati Asundi (19:57) I didn't, I told you Norway. Maria Sisneroz (19:59) I wasn't listening. Aarati Asundi (20:01) That's okay. Maria Sisneroz (20:03) I thought you were just saying like Norway is north near the lights because I have a shirt that literally says like Norway with a Norwegian flag. Aarati Asundi (20:10) no, I was...I see. Yeah, no, I was specifically saying Norway because he's Norwegian. Maria Sisneroz (20:14) Norway. Aw man, missed opportunity. One day. Maybe should have changed. Aarati Asundi (20:21) Yeah, that's okay. I'm sure there'll be another Norwegian at some point. Okay, so they broke off their friendship for a while because apparently Kristian is no longer patriotic enough. But then while Kristian is still in Leipzig, he goes to a play called Little Eyolf. And in the third act, there's a scene where the actor is supposed to be waving a Norwegian flag, but he was actually mistakenly waving a Swedish flag. Kristian got so mad that he stood up in the theater yelling, quote, "This production is a scandal using a Swedish flag when it should be Norwegian!" Maria Sisneroz (21:00) They don't even look that much alike Do they? Hold on, let me look it up. I'm pretty sure it's... I only know because I watch soccer. Aarati Asundi (21:08) I see. Maria Sisneroz (21:08) So yeah, it's blue and yellow. It has like a yellowish crossy thing. Aarati Asundi (21:13) Yeah, the Norwegian flag is red with... Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (21:13) And then the Norwegian flag with a blue and then a little bit of white in there. That's like very different. Aarati Asundi (21:20) Yeah, the Norwegian, it is very different. Yeah, the Norwegian flag is red with a blue cross and a white border around the blue cross. Yeah, very different. Maria Sisneroz (21:30) Yeah, versus a with blue with a yellow cross, like completely different. Aarati Asundi (21:34) Yeah, yeah. So I don't know if this actor like didn't know the difference or they only had a Swedish flag or... Maria Sisneroz (21:42) A Swedish flag? Aarati Asundi (21:44) I don't know what it was about, but Kristian got really mad about it. He started yelling in the theater. And so then the audience got mad at him and Kristian was thrown out of the theater. the following night, yeah, but the following night they had fixed the flag. And Sophus Lie had heard about the incident and was like, you are a true patriot. We can be friends again. So they patched things up. So I just thought that was a little funny insight into his character. In 1890, Kristian is now 23. So he goes back to Norway and he starts working at the University of Kristiania. Kristiania. Kristiania. Maria Sisneroz (22:26) Oslo. Aarati Asundi (22:27) University of Oslo, yes. Oslo is much easier to say. Kristiania. Maria Sisneroz (22:35) Yes. Future Oslo. Aarati Asundi (22:38) Yes. so he starts working at the University of Kristiania on electromagnetism which is the study of electrically charged particles and how they interact with electric and or magnetic fields. So he's particularly inspired by the work of James Maxwell who predicted the existence of electromagnetic waves because he proposed that light basically exists in the same medium as electric and magnetic fields which led him to predicting that things like radio waves must exist. And then Heinrich Hertz experimentally proved Maxwell's theories right. So Kristian was keeping really close tabs on both of these guys' research and publications. And he was performing experiments to confirm and in some cases even go beyond what Hertz's lab was doing. So initially he was doing experiments where he would test the properties of electromagnetic waves in different mediums. And then based on these experiments, he published several papers between 1890 and 1895, which greatly furthered scientists understanding of electromagnetic fields. So he's all over this. Okay, so now in 1895, Wilhelm Rontgen comes out with his discovery of X-rays based on Lenard's cathode rays. And this inspired Kristian to start looking at electromagnetic waves in space. So as I said, I talked about this a little bit with Arpita in the Rontgen episode, and actually I talked about cathode rays in the Percy Spencer episode too the guy who invented microwave ovens. Like this is all happening around the same time. But for people who maybe don't remember or haven't listened to those episodes, all of this research is based around scientists trying to understand the properties of cathode rays. So a cathode ray is a vacuum sealed glass tube. that has a negatively charged electrode on one end called cathode and a positively charged electrode on the other end called an anode. The scientists would then send electric energy through the tube and this would cause electrons, which are negatively charged particles to get excited and fall off the cathode. And then because they're negatively charged, they would get attracted to the positive anode. And so the stream of electrons going through the glass tube is what they're calling a cathode ray. But they didn't know that they were electrons. They didn't know what was happening. They are just like sending electricity through this tube, seeing this glowing like stream of light. And they're like, what is this made of? Why is it glowing? What is happening? So that's what these scientists are all trying to figure out. And Kristian in particular was wondering How would cathode rays behave in different magnetic fields? Because remember, he's obsessed with magnets. So in 1895, Kristian conducted one of his most famous experiments called the Terrella experiments. And just an important point to keep in mind, a lot of these experiments that he's doing were paid for out of his own pocket because Norway at the time was a very poor country and the university couldn't afford to give him all the high-tech equipment that he needed for these experiments. And also, Kind of because of this, his lab did not abide by any safety standards at all. In fact, the university's inspection committee even refused to enter his lab because they were scared. electric things and charges and magnetism happening in this lab all the time. Just let's pretend we didn't see it. Maria Sisneroz (26:30) That's kind of funny. This kind of connects in general as we're looking at people who are doing experiments in like the early days and how much you could get away with back then. Aarati Asundi (26:41) Yeah. Yeah. Especially because he's dealing with like high electricity, high magnetism, like experiments. You would want those things, I feel like, to be super controlled, but apparently not. Maria Sisneroz (26:54) But they don't know. Aarati Asundi (26:56) Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (26:56) I mean, it's like the whole concept of x-rays too. Like they didn't know about radiation. Aarati Asundi (27:00) Right. Yeah, they had no idea. Maria Sisneroz (27:01) How are you gonna know? Cool. Aarati Asundi (27:02) They were just like, cool, I can see my bones! Maria Sisneroz (27:03) Cool! Aarati Asundi (27:03) Let's keep doing that. Maria Sisneroz (27:05) Let's just keep radiating myself. Nothing bad can come of this. Aarati Asundi (27:07) Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And it's like, how else are you going to study it? How else are you going to learn? Anyway, back to his famous Terrella experiments. So basically what Kristian did was he took a large sphere made of lodestone, which is a naturally magnetized a piece of mineral called magnetite. And this sphere is called a Terrella, which translates to a small earth because it mimics the earth's magnetic field. So essentially what Kristian does is he places the Terrella in the middle of a large cathode ray. So the whole setup is in a vacuum sealed chamber, which simulates space, and then a negatively charged cathode is in one corner and it's giving off that stream of electrons, which would travel through the chamber and interact with the magnetic field around the Terrella. And so what Kristian has basically done now on a really small scale is create how the sun's solar wind interacts with the earth's magnetic field. So in reality, the sun is so hot that charged particles like electrons have so much energy that they escape the gravitational pull of the sun and they shoot towards earth. This steady stream of charged particles coming off the sun is what is called solar wind. So these particles shoot towards earth, but most of them are deflected by our earth's magnetic field. So... You can kind of think of like the magnetic field as Earth's sunscreen, if you will, blocking harmful radiation from the sun. But at the poles, the magnetic field is much weaker. And here's where the interesting stuff happens. So in his Terrella experiments, Kristian saw rings of light around the two poles of the Terrella. And By the way, this experiment has been recreated at the Norwegian Museum of Science and Technology and Medicine in Oslo, Norway. And they have a video on YouTube that is super cool. I highly recommend people go watch it. I'm gonna link it on the website because you need to watch it. Maria Sisneroz (29:23) Is it the one minute one or the two minute one? Is that Norsk Tech-nessk Museum? Aarati Asundi (29:29) Norsk Teknisk Museum, yeah that one. Maria Sisneroz (29:32) Please hold. Aarati Asundi (29:33) It's two minutes. Maria Sisneroz (29:35) Okay, got it. Oh wow! Aarati Asundi (29:39) Isn't that cool looking? Maria Sisneroz (29:42) really cool, I like that, that's a really cool video. Yeah. Aarati Asundi (29:42) Right? Isn't it? Isn't it awesome looking? Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (29:48) That'd be really cool album artwork. Aarati Asundi (29:50) Right? I think anything related to like Northern Lights or Glowy Things would be really cool album artwork. Maria Sisneroz (29:58) Or just art. I'd put that on my wall. Aarati Asundi (29:59) Mm-hmm. Yeah, why not? People do. People have. That's why it's like the human's fascination with the Northern Lights has, you know, gone on for centuries. Maria Sisneroz (30:04) Yeah. Aarati Asundi (30:12) So yeah, so this is what Kristian is basically seeing in his lab. He's seeing these kind of rings of light the two poles of his Terrella. And he's like, you know what, those glowy rings look like a lot like the Aurora Borealis because, you know, people didn't know what that was either. And he's like, this thing is supposed to represent the earth. There's glowy rings around it. Where do we know about glowy lights in nature? aurora borealis. So he's like, I wonder if this is how that's caused. And he didn't know it at the time, but he was pretty much exactly right. That's what's happening. The charged particles from the sun are able to interact with gases in our atmosphere like oxygen and nitrogen. And when this happens, the gases become excited and emit photons of light. And that's how we get an aurora borealis. And that's also why when we have a solar flare, when there's like radiation from the sun or more localized activity and emissions from the sun, we see the Northern Lights more clearly and over a wide area and sometimes in places that you wouldn't normally see them. So when Kristian proposed this as an idea, it was met with a lot of skepticism by scientists because, again, scientists weren't even sure what cathode rays were. And so now to draw a parallel between a cathode ray and saying, like, that's how the sun that was already a tough sell. And in fact, we're not even sure how Kristian himself came to this conclusion. But despite this, Kristian continued to experiment with his Terrella and the more he experimented, the more convinced he became that this is how Northern Lights work. Maria Sisneroz (31:59) But he didn't know it was an electron thing though, right? Because they didn't even know that the electron... Okay. He just knew that there was something related to electricity and magnets. That was... Aarati Asundi (32:11) He kind of was assuming that it's like some charged particle. So something, some electrically charged particle is interacting with the magnetic field to do this. That's kind of where he was at. Yeah. But... Maria Sisneroz (32:22) Okay. Which it had to be because you, you insert a magnet, so there must be a charge. Yeah. Aarati Asundi (32:29) right. Right. And you're, yeah, exactly. Right. So in 19, sorry, I keep saying 19. It's 18s. It's the 1800s. So in 1897, Kristian started leading expeditions to the northernmost part of Norway called Finnamark in the Arctic Circle to study the real northern lights. He was particularly interested in trying to get a reading on how high up in the atmosphere they were and getting magnetic field data at the poles. However, his first expedition They were only able to observe one aurora before he and his team encountered a snowstorm that was so bad that they couldn't see or do anything. They just kind of had to hunker down until the snowstorm died down and many of the team members ended up with frostbite. One of his students actually had to have some of his fingers amputated Maria Sisneroz (33:25) Did they have photography yet? Aarati Asundi (33:27) They did, but it wasn't great. So few photographs of lab setup and his Terrella experiments, but they're very black and white and grainy. A lot of the pictures of things that I've seen in my research about the story are drawings that either Kristian or his students made. Maria Sisneroz (33:49) Okay, because I know at least now you can see the northern lights sometimes only on camera and not with the naked eye. Aarati Asundi (33:58) interesting. I didn't know that. Maria Sisneroz (34:00) Yeah, from an experimentation standpoint... Aarati Asundi (34:04) Mm-hmm. Maria Sisneroz (34:05) they could have in theory used cameras if they had them. I just don't know exactly how that works because cameras can see different light phenomena that our eyes can't. And so even if you weren't seeing it, there may have been, like the Northern lights may have actually been present. And so it might've been easier to actually also get a gradient of what was happening from an electromagnetic standpoint. That'd kind of be interesting. I'm sure they've done that kind of stuff now. Aarati Asundi (34:35) Yeah, I don't think they had the technology back then. And even if they did, this is the first time anyone's really doing kind of like Arctic expeditions to go observe the Northern Lights. They don't know what to observe the Northern Lights with. So this first expedition is obviously really badly planned. They didn't. Maria Sisneroz (35:01) People losing fingers! Aarati Asundi (35:02) Yeah, people losing fingers. They did not have a shelter really. They were just like, oh crap, a snowstorm. Kristian didn't give up though. In 1899, he started planning a second expedition. And this time he wanted to build two observatories on top of two different mountains in Finnemark so that he could triangulate the position of the Aurora. This was super expensive though. And like I said, Norway was a poor country at this time. So Kristian had to try and raise the money himself because the university couldn't fund this and banks weren't able to give him a loan that big. So he figured maybe if he created some sort of useful device or tool, he could get investors interested and raise the money that way. So he developed what initially was supposed to be a switch for hydroelectric plants that would turn on and off water currents at Norway's fjords using electromagnetism, like an electromagnetic switch. But although it was a good plan in theory, it was built very badly. So when Kristian tried to give a practical demonstration, the device ended up blowing up. So that didn't work. Maria Sisneroz (36:03) Whoops! Aarati Asundi (36:21) The theory was good. So Kristian kept working at it and he found a way to repurpose the basic electromagnetic technology behind the switch to make it into a cannon that would shoot missiles. And this generated enough interest from several investors who were interested in weapons and warfare and that kind of thing that Kristian was able to pull together enough money to build his observatories. This is going to become important later. So keep a pin in that. So he's got the money to build his observatories and these are the first observatories dedicated to studying the Northern Lights. But tragedy struck again on March 16th, 1900 when a huge avalanche hit one of the observatories. Two people died, including one of Kristian's young research assistants, Elisar Boye. and a local sea captain who just apparently liked to visit the observatory every now and then. So he wasn't like part of the team. He was just like, hey, cool, an observatory. And then he died in the avalanche. Two others were buried in the snow, but managed to dig themselves out. Kristian was devastated by the deaths and wrote a long heartfelt letter to Elisar's parents explaining to them exactly what he had been working on and how he died. So think Kristian did kind of finally learn from this that, you know, he can't just take random people to the observatory. And he had to be a little bit more careful with his planning. But based on the data, the team had collected at these observatories, Kristian was able to write a book with his findings called The Auroral Expeditions. It was met with mixed reviews because although most agreed that the science was very good, it was tainted by the death of Elisar, who had only been 22 and was such a promising young scholar. Also, there were some countries, Britain in particular, who still didn't believe in the theory of charged particles from the sun causing the auroras. So the science idea is also kind of a tough sell despite his scientific rigor. Aarati Asundi (38:41) Hi everyone, Aarati here. I hope you're enjoying the podcast. If so, and you wish someone would tell your science story, I founded a science communications company called Sykom, that's S-Y-K-O-M, that can help. Sykom blends creativity with scientific accuracy to create all types of science, communications, content, including explainer videos, slide presentations, science, writing, and more. We work with academic researchers, tech companies, nonprofits, or really any scientists. To help simplify your science, check us out at sykommer.com. That's S-Y-K-O-M-M-E r.com. Back to the story. Aarati Asundi (39:26) But Kristian didn't stop going on Arctic expeditions and even expanded his operation, setting up more observatories, even ones outside of Norway. So he's taking this international now. And I thought this was particularly kind of crazy because not only had someone like literally just died on his watch, but also Kristian had recently gotten married. So in 1901, Kristian was attending a dinner party at one of his friend's house, Professor Henrik Mohn. who was the first director of the Norwegian Meteorological Institute. And Professor Mohn had also invited some family members of his to the dinner, including his niece, Ida Charlotte Hammer. She was smart, a devout most importantly was like, Kristian, yeah, we met before, you're the guy with the magnets. And so now, like apparently they've met before, but Kristian didn't really pay her any attention before this, but now she was like, I remember you, you have magnets." And he's like, yes. And so she caught his interest. Maria Sisneroz (40:28) You remember that I have magnets! Aarati Asundi (40:30) Yes, I'm the magnet guy. Yeah. So four years later, they got married, but their marriage was unfortunately not a happy one. Kristian was so wrapped up in his work that he didn't have any time for her. He's going on all these like Arctic expeditions and just leaving her alone at home. They never even had any kids. And after four years of marriage in 1909, they formally separated and two years later they were divorced. But at least Kristian had the sense to recognize that he was the one who had failed as a husband and he made sure that he provided for Ida financially after the divorce. Maria Sisneroz (41:12) I'm assuming he did not get married again. Aarati Asundi (41:15) No, he did not. He understood that married life was not for him. So Kristian is constantly working with teams going up to the Arctic Circle, which by now he had learned he needed to hire people who had Arctic living experience and who were able to survive the harsh cold winters up there. And to finance these expeditions, he's still working on refining that electromagnetic cannon that he had until one day he was giving a demonstration of his cannon and he writes this account of what happened. He said, quote, "I went through the physical principle on which the cannon was based, then said, ladies and gentlemen, you may calmly be seated. When I pull the switch, you will neither see nor hear anything except the projectile hitting the target. With this, I pulled the switch. There was a large flash of light and a deafening hissing noise. The bright arc of light was due to a 10,000 ampere short circuit. Flame shot out of the cannon's mouth. Maria Sisneroz (42:17) Ten thousand? Aarati Asundi (42:19) Yes. Flames shot out of the cannon's mouth. Some of the ladies in the audience shrieked. Panic followed for a moment. It was the most dramatic moment of my life. With this shot, my stock fell from 300 to zero in value. However, the projectile did hit the bullseye." End quote. Maria Sisneroz (42:40) Oh my goodness. Did he not test it ahead of time? Like why does this keep happening? Like is he not? Aarati Asundi (42:45) So he did. No, he did. Apparently he tested it the day before and it worked fine. But when he gave it, like when he did it for the actual demonstration, it's short-circuited for some reason. Maria Sisneroz (43:01) He just has really bad luck with demos. Aarati Asundi (43:03) I guess so. But while most people would have probably been like, well, I'm done for, no one's ever gonna invest in me or my ideas ever again after this fiasco. Kristian had kind of actually enjoyed the commotion that he had caused. And more importantly, he had noticed something bright arc of light that he had seen was due to electrically charged particles whizzing back and forth at such high speeds that they caused the air to heat up high enough to create lightning or a form of plasma. So why is this important? Because around the turn of the century, the world was facing a scarcity of potassium nitrate, also known as saltpeter, which is a naturally occurring nitrogen-rich fertilizer. So there are some scientists who are saying, maybe we can make fertilizer instead by using nitrogen from the air. But that was easier said than done because the nitrogen in the air is in the form of two nitrogen atoms that are triple bonded to each other. And that is a tough bond to break. But Kristian's plasma arc was so hot that he realized it was actually able to break that triple bond in nitrogen gas and form nitrous oxide, which you could then use to make fertilizer. So Kristian got together with an industrialist named Sam Eyde. And in 1905, they started a company called Norske Hydro because they built their factory near a waterfall that Sam Eyde owned. So they could use the hydroelectric power to create enough energy to generate lightning to create nitrous oxide. The device itself was called the Birkeland plasma torch, but the process as a whole of like splitting nitrogen, creating nitrogen oxide, and then creating fertilizer was called the Birkeland-Eyde process. So Sam and Kristian worked well together for a few years with Kristian using his share of the profits to finance more research expeditions into the Arctic. However, by 1910, their relationship began to strain. By this time, Kristian had sold off most of his shares of the company at under market value, and he had made considerably less money than Sam had, which he was actually okay with. He just wanted enough money to finance his research expeditions, which he had gotten. But afterwards, Sam withheld bonuses that Kristian had been promised in written agreements. and he started unilaterally selling their joint patents without Kristian's approval. But worst of all, according to Kristian, Sam started acting like he was also a researcher and started taking scientific credit for a lot of the work that Kristian had done. And in fact, this ended up having some really serious repercussions because Kristian's plasma torch And the way it revolutionized the fertilizer industry was such a huge achievement that Kristian was nominated for the Nobel Prize seven times between 1907 and 1913. But Sam Eyde wanted in on the prize too, because the process itself was called the Birkeland-Eyde process. But when the Nobel Prize committee reviewed Sam Eyde's work and his contributions to the process, they realized that Sam didn't actually know much about chemistry or physics at all because he's a businessman. He's an industrialist. He doesn't know the science. So they were like, how can we give a guy who actually knows very little science, one of the world's highest scientific honors? Like that doesn't make sense. Maria Sisneroz (46:55) Mm-hmm. Aarati Asundi (46:56) But Sam refused to let Kristian take sole credit even though Kristian really did deserve it. Kristian was the scientist in this team. And so Kristian never won the Nobel Prize because Sam kept butting in. Maria Sisneroz (47:10) Wow. Aarati Asundi (47:11) Right? Maria Sisneroz (47:13) That's...I was gonna say a word I don't wanna say on this podcast, but that's not very nice. Yeah. Aarati Asundi (47:16) That's awful. Yeah, that's it's, it's really selfish and so terrible. Maria Sisneroz (47:22) Sometimes people are... not very good people. Aarati Asundi (47:24) Douchebags? Maria Sisneroz (47:26) I was gonna say that actually. Aarati Asundi (47:28) You were going to say douchebags? You can say douchebags. It's okay. Maria Sisneroz (47:32) I was gonna say that's kind of a douchey thing to do, you know, but like, Aarati Asundi (47:34) It is. Maria Sisneroz (47:34) Yeah, it's not a very kind or... I mean, the thing is too, it would be different if he had done any of the work. Aarati Asundi (47:44) Right? Maria Sisneroz (47:44) But don't know, I guess some people are just like that where it's not about what you did, it's about what you get out of it. And so, people will do anything to manipulate a process or a situation to get what they want. Aarati Asundi (47:57) Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (47:58) And it's not a good thing. It's not a good look. Aarati Asundi (48:02) And I feel like often when you do stuff like that, it ends up hurting you because I feel like wouldn't it have been better if you let Kristian get his Nobel Prize and then you could kind of be like, hey, I work with this Nobel Prize winning scientist. You should come to our company because we have him on our team. Just saying like, could be, you're the businessman, you're the industrialist. You could like use that as a marketing tool to get more business and make your business grow. Maria Sisneroz (48:26) Or even saying like, he did all the science, but like, in a lot of ways, he was the one who made it a reality. know, like, even though he didn't do the... Aarati Asundi (48:33) Yeah, he made it practical. Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (48:36) Yeah. So they were able to apply it because of him. So you still get the glory, even though you don't have the prize, which you shouldn't have, because you didn't discover the process. Aarati Asundi (48:46) Yeah, the prize is for science, so you need to butt out. Maria Sisneroz (48:50) Oh my gosh. it's like a lobster pot. Aarati Asundi (48:52) Lobster pot? Maria Sisneroz (48:53) You've heard that before? Or maybe is it a crab pot? A crab pot. Aarati Asundi (48:58) What does that mean? Maria Sisneroz (49:00) So you can put crabs in a pot of boiling water and even though technically they could create a chain and get out, they won't because as one crab is trying to kind of make its way up, the other crabs will pull it back down. So yeah, they're. Aarati Asundi (49:15) Really? Maria Sisneroz (49:17) There's kind of a metaphor there that people use often, which is, you know, we are living in this crab pot where you can't let anyone else rise because that means that you aren't rising at that exact moment. But if you would just work together as a team, then you could all escape and you could all have your moment. But oftentimes that's not the reality and people don't want to do that. People end up acting like those crabs in the pot and just pull other people down because they can't tolerate the idea. Aarati Asundi (49:44) And then you're all cooked. Maria Sisneroz (49:45) Yeah, and then you're all cooked and you all die and that's the end. Aarati Asundi (49:46) Yeah. Yeah. I hadn't heard that. That's a really good metaphor for exactly this, exactly what's happening here. So understandably, all of this friction between him and Sam caused Kristian a lot of stress and anxiety. In 1905, Kristian suffers a nervous breakdown. Maria Sisneroz (50:05) Wait, what year is this? Aarati Asundi (50:06) 1905, so we've gone back a little bit, there's a little bit of back and forth here. On the advice of his brother, Tonnes, who remember became a medical doctor, he started taking Veronal, which is a barbitol, to help him sleep. But his mental and physical health continued to spiral over the next several years and Kristian developed a dependency on the drug. Maria Sisneroz (50:33) I was gonna say, that's a drug. Aarati Asundi (50:37) Yeah. people didn't really know much, I think, about Veronal and barbitols and barbiturates at the time. They were just like, hey, cool, this thing helps you sleep and it calms you down, great. And they didn't realize the addictive properties it could have yet. So... Kristian was also still fighting the tide in trying to get recognition for his work on auroras because scientists still didn't really believe him as a whole. Like there were so many theories out there about what could cause the Northern Lights and there was no consensus. So his idea was just one of many at this point. He was upset that he wasn't getting recognition in Europe. So Kristian travels to Egypt to study another auroral event called the Zodiacal Light which is a faint triangular glowing patch of sunlight that is scattered by interplanetary dust. I had never heard of this. I didn't know this was a thing. And I also didn't know that you could see this like in Egypt. Maria Sisneroz (51:36) Did you look up any videos? Aarati Asundi (51:38) I saw a picture of it. It's literally like a triangle of light beaming down from the sky. It kind of looks like a spaceship beam like when they abduct, you know? Maria Sisneroz (51:48) interesting. Well, I mean, because obviously all of these phenomena are actually aliens. Aarati Asundi (51:55) Yes, clearly, obviously. But that's what it kind of looks like, doesn't it? It kind of looks like a spaceship beam. Maria Sisneroz (52:03) Beam me up Scotty. Yeah. Aarati Asundi (52:05) So he goes to Egypt to study this with his team. However, shortly after World War I broke out and most of his colleagues are called back to Europe to serve the war in some capacity or another, and they all leave Kristian, alone in Africa. Maria Sisneroz (52:24) Norway, it's not as big of a player like as if you are in Britain. Aarati Asundi (52:30) Yes, but for some reason, I think the war made them either want to return home were called back to create some materials for the war or something if they were selling stuff to the allies I don't know why, but basically they all left him in Africa. Maria Sisneroz (52:47) I mean, it's better than in the Arctic. Aarati Asundi (52:50) Yeah, true, true. But because he's alone and has no one to talk to, this caused his health to spiral even more. And in a last-ditch attempt to pull himself out of his depression, he traveled to Tokyo, Japan, to try and reconnect with an old colleague of his. But on June 15th, 1917, Kristian was found dead in his hotel room due to an overdose of Veronal. Maria Sisneroz (53:19) Not surprising. Aarati Asundi (53:20) Yeah, he had taken over 20 times the amount prescribed. Although people are unsure if this was intentional or whether his mental state was just so bad that it was an accident. He was only 49 years old. Maria Sisneroz (53:33) Aren't those used at some point in history, like fairly recent history, within the last, I say recent, but within the last 50-ish years, weren't barbiturates and that type of drug or class of drug fairly commonly used for suicide? Aarati Asundi (53:53) I would assume so. I think so. I think that's why there's probably such a push now on safety for those kinds of things, like for sleeping aids and things, you have to be really, really careful. There's a lot of studies to make sure that they're not addictive and things like that, ⁓ which clearly was not the case around Kristian's time. I think this was kind of a new field at that time, And they hadn't properly studied Maria Sisneroz (54:15) And has other effects. Aarati Asundi (53:15) all the side effects. Yeah, they hadn't. Maria Sisneroz (54:17) I mean, look at us. That's kind of how it is with opioids, right? Aarati Asundi (54:20) Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. Maria Sisneroz (54:22) That's kind of how it is with drugs and then we now have drug companies that are for profit and so... Aarati Asundi (54:28) Yes. Maria Sisneroz (54:30) It... it all gets so murky. Aarati Asundi (54:32) It really does. Maria Sisneroz (54:33) We won't get into that but it gets murky. Aarati Asundi (54:35) Yeah. Maybe that's a future episode, but yes, yes, definitely. Maria Sisneroz (54:40) That's sad. Aarati Asundi (54:43) so young. He was only 49 years old and his last few years were so difficult. I felt really bad for him. Maria Sisneroz (54:53) Sorry, I just wanted to quickly look up about his suicide. was kind of curious. Oh interesting. Aarati Asundi (54:57) Okay. Well, they're not sure if it was a suicide. said it was a suicide. Some people said it might've been an accident, so they don't know. Maria Sisneroz (55:07) This one says that on his bedside table there was a package of varonal and a revolver. Aarati Asundi (55:14) I did see that. So I couldn't substantiate those. Like that wasn't, Maria Sisneroz (55:19) That may or may not be real. Aarati Asundi (55:21) Yeah, that may or may not be real. That wasn't mentioned in like every source that I read. And so I was like not, I wasn't sure if that was a true thing or someone had made it up for the tabloids of the time or something like... Maria Sisneroz (55:34) which could easily happen. Aarati Asundi (55:34) Who knows? Yes. So I'm, I just wasn't sure about but it definitely might've been. Maria Sisneroz (55:40) Did you say Japan? Aarati Asundi (55:43) Yeah, he's in Japan. He's in Tokyo, Japan. He's trying to reconnect with an old colleague apparently. And He dies in Japan. was cremated in Japan and after the war, his ashes are sent back to Norway to be buried. On his gravestone, they wrote, quote, "He bound nitrogen from the air with electromagnetic arcs. He studied the Northern Lights, solar radiation and the Earth's magnetic field." So it took nearly another 50 years before humans in 1967 were able to build the technology to send a space probe up and take measurements that proved Kristian's theories on auroral events correct. The University of Oslo dubbed him the King of the Northern Lights. And from 2003 to 2017, his face was on the 200 Kronor note. And yeah, so he did not get the recognition that he deserved during his lifetime, which is really sad, I thought. It all happened posthumously. I just kind of felt like his story had a unsatisfying and sad ending, but that was his story. Maria Sisneroz (57:00) That's sad. Aarati Asundi (57:01) I know. I'm sorry to end it on such a downer. I was just like, the Northern lights are so pretty. I wonder how they work. And then started reading about him and I was just like, wait a minute. Okay, electromagnetic radiation, that's fine. That's fine, whatever. And then I was like, wait, nitrogen, fertilizer, what is he doing in that? And then that led him to be nominated for the Nobel Prize like a ton of times, but why didn't he win? because there's this douchebag who's preventing it, like... and then he died. That's so sad. So... Yeah but hopefully in the next episode I will find someone who is a little bit more well-recognized in their time and reaps the benefits their work and just has a happier story. Maria Sisneroz (57:52) But you kind of think about the kind of person he probably was. He probably was like very isolated because he isolated himself. And then he got into a bad situation with all that fertilizer stuff and... Aarati Asundi (58:07) I think the thing is like he just really threw himself into his work. You know, he got married but didn't pay his wife any attention. You know, he didn't, like you said, he didn't really have any support system around him, even though he could have. And then when his work didn't pay off the way that he wanted it to because like scientists didn't really believe him or like there was no consensus that like, yes, he's right until 60 years after his death or 50 years after his death. So he's not getting the recognition during his time. And then even when people do recognize him for the fertilizer thing, like he's not actually winning the Nobel prize because of, you know, external factors. So it's like, what, what do you have? You know, like you're the thing that you've worked so hard for is not paying off. And that must've been incredibly frustrating. Maria Sisneroz (59:00) Yeah, and then you also look at just like the mental health piece. Like he started having mental health issues fairly early on. I mean, not really, like kind of. He was what, 30s? Aarati Asundi (59:11) Yeah, like in his, yeah, thirties, I think. Yeah, like 35 or so. Yeah. That's our age. Like around our age. Maria Sisneroz (59:14) Yeah. And so.... it's early on for Aarati. Aarati Asundi (59:20) Yeah it is. Maria Sisneroz (59:26) But yeah, you know, have to think about those. those inputs into like what was actually going on behind the curtain. But I would be curious to know personality wise what some of these scientists were like, because you look at a lot of artists and people who were brilliant. And I just feel like some of those people were probably not the easiest to get along with. I think that's the kindest way to say it. Aarati Asundi (59:48) think he was a nice person overall, especially when his student died, he was deeply empathetic to the parents. He wrote them a letter. Maria Sisneroz (59:58) It's fair. Aarati Asundi (1:00:00) And usually when I do read about scientists who are tough to get along with, try to incorporate that into the story that I'm telling to kind of paint a picture. But he just seemed pretty just kind of low-key overall, just really intense about his work, but He was fine to get along with. But you're right. He probably because of his introverted nature and because he was quiet, maybe people were like, well, we don't know how to connect with you if all you're going to talk about is your work. Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (1:00:28) and he probably didn't care about connecting. Aarati Asundi (1:00:31) Right. Yeah, might've been a tough situation for him that I think that way. But I think a lot of the things I've read about his personality were more was bad with money, you know, because he was like trying to, Maria Sisneroz (1:00:42) Obviously. Aarati Asundi (1:00:43) Yeah, he was trying to finance all these expeditions to the Arctic. And then he would like say, oh, this is only going to cost like 12,000 Kroner. And then it ended up costing three times that. And you know, people would ask him for receipts and he'd be like, why? I remember how much it is. And it's like, but we need an actual receipt in order to process this. And he's like, I can tell you exactly how much it was. They're like, that's great. That doesn't help us. So things like that, Maria Sisneroz (1:01:12) And I think it's one of those things too where like what I was saying earlier, it's not necessarily that they were a jerk. It's more just like there are certain types of people where they're just so brilliant or they're just so out there. It's just very hard to connect. Partially because they don't wanna connect. And maybe want is not the right word, but there are things that are more important. Aarati Asundi (1:01:37) Yeah, they're more interested in what they're studying and not like the local gossip or like the most interesting, you know, pop culture news of the time, which most people are interested in, but they don't know anything about. Maria Sisneroz (1:01:52) And so like they are isolating and then as the mental health stuff gets worse, It's more of tendency towards further isolating yourself, which becomes really easy if you already don't have a lot of people around you. So that's super bummer that he didn't have the support system to kind of pull him out, but. Aarati Asundi (1:02:14) Yeah, I did find it kind of interesting that his last ditch attempt was going to Japan to meet with a colleague. I'm like, really? There's no one in Norway? What about your brother? What about, you know? Maria Sisneroz (1:02:25) That's, yeah, that's I was wondering too. Aarati Asundi (1:02:27) Yeah, yeah, I'm like, you decide to go to Japan? OK, interesting. So yeah. Do you want to go see the Northern Lights at some point with me? Maria Sisneroz (1:02:39) Oh yeah. Aarati Asundi (1:02:39) We can like, you know, go up to one of the observatories maybe? Maria Sisneroz (1:02:44) No, see, we gotta look at that. We gotta look at the chart to find like the places you can see it where the weather isn't horrendous during like a solar flare. And then we should plan a trip somewhere really nice. Not that the Arctic isn't nice, but if we could see it in a location that's not freezing cold, I don't like the cold, Aarati Asundi (1:03:08) I don't either. Maria Sisneroz (1:03:09) But I would do it just to see the Northern Lights, but... Aarati Asundi (1:03:10) Yeah I don't like the cold either. Maria Sisneroz (1:03:11) But you can never even guarantee that you're gonna see it. That's the hard part. Aarati Asundi (1:03:15) That's the tough thing. That's the hard thing. Yeah. That's tough that if you make the trip all the way up there and then you don't see it, it's very disappointing. Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (1:03:25) Yeah, that's why you should look at the map and be like, okay, it's possible it will be in this area. We could get lucky, but maybe we can also have like a nice vacation in a place that's not freezing cold. Aarati Asundi (1:03:34) Mm-hmm. Yes, agreed, agreed. I'm down for this trip. Maria Sisneroz (1:03:44) Thanks for listening. If you have a suggestion for a story we should cover or thoughts you want to share about an episode, reach out to us at smartteapodcast.com. You can follow us on Instagram, TikTok, and bluesky at Smart Tea Podcast and listen to us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts and leave a rating or comment. It helps us grow. episodes are released every other Wednesday. See you next time.