Maria Sisneroz (00:13) Hey everyone and welcome back to the Smart Tea Podcast where we talk about the lives of scientists and innovators who shaped the world. Hello. Aarati Asundi (00:20) Hi, Maria, how are you? Maria Sisneroz (00:22) I'm good. Just busy, as you know. Aarati Asundi (00:26) Yeah, I know. I know. We were supposed to record yesterday, and then that didn't happen. And so we're squeezing it in today, and it's going to be great. Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (00:33) It's gonna be great. So are you gonna tell me why you're dressed up yet? Aarati Asundi (00:38) Oh yes. Well, it is on theme for the episode. Yeah, we will be talking about an Indian lady. So I was like, I'm an Indian lady and I have Indian clothes. I'm going to represent my country. Hurrah. Maria Sisneroz (00:51) Oh nice! Aarati Asundi (00:52) Yeah. So that's why I'm dressed up the way... I tried to choose one that had like a really nice pattern on the top so that you could see it. Because I have a lot of Indian clothes that are very decorative, but the decoration is at the bottom, on the hem, or on the pants, or somewhere you can't see it if I'm sitting down. So I tried to choose one that has a nice, pretty pattern up here. Yeah. Yes. Maria Sisneroz (01:16) Oh nice! very nice I approve Aarati Asundi (01:18) Yeah, so I was like, you know, I like your idea of dressing up and, you know, being on theme with every episode as much as we can. And I do not nearly have the number of t-shirts you do. So I usually cannot do it, but I figured if I can, why not? Maria Sisneroz (01:36) It's funny because I have so many t-shirts, but because I'm living in a place temporarily just for a year, a lot of my shirts are in like bins. Aarati Asundi (01:43) In boxes. Maria Sisneroz (01:46) So I'm like, gosh, I know I have a shirt like that, but I have no idea where it is right now. So sometimes I'll be reaching. Aarati Asundi (01:53) But you still did something this time. You sent me like four options this time when I told you the theme of the episode. I was like, this episode we're going to be talking about kind of nutrition and food and plants a little bit. So something along those lines. And you're like, OK, should I do this shirt or this shirt or this shirt or this shirt? Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (02:15) Yeah, this is what you ultimately landed on. I am curious Aarati Asundi (02:18) I did. Maria Sisneroz (02:18) what the topic actually is. Aarati Asundi (02:20) Yeah. Today you have on a Darth Tater shirt... Maria Sisneroz (02:22) Darth Tater. Aarati Asundi (02:22) ...and Spud Wars? Oh, Spud Wars. That's super cute. Maria Sisneroz (02:26) Actually, the even funnier part, I don't know if you can read that far, but it says... Aarati Asundi (02:30) Does it say Idaho at the bottom. Maria Sisneroz (02:33) Well it does. I don't actually remember where I got this from, but it says, "Welcome to the starch side". Aarati Asundi (02:39) Oh my God, that's so funny. bad puns. I love it. Doesn't your son also have a Mr. Potato Head that's like the different, like a Stormtrooper and a Darth Vader version of Mr. Potato Head? Maria Sisneroz (02:52) Oh yeah. So when he saw this he was freaking out because I don't really wear this shirt that often. so Kai was like, ⁓ Darth Vader! And I was like, Darth Tater? Aarati Asundi (03:01) Darth Tater. That's so cute. Oh my gosh. Yes, So today's story is going to be about ⁓ Sohonie, who is the first Indian woman to get a PhD. And I think it's a really, it was a really interesting story. I think I was just I felt like we've been doing a lot of Western people, European people, American people... Maria Sisneroz (03:29) And males. Well, I guess there is a woman. There is one woman since I started. Aarati Asundi (03:20) And males. I try to mix that up. I try to mix it up, but I'm like, you know, a lot of the stories that we hear about are white males, definitely, but then also a lot of Europeans, a lot of Americans. And so I was like, we're ignoring the whole rest of India, China, and you know, because I'm Indian, I'm biased. And so we're doing an Indian person first, or like not first, but you know. So if you're ready, let's get into the story. Maria Sisneroz (04:03) Let's do it. Aarati Asundi (04:04) Okay, so Kamala Sohonie was born as Kamala Bhagvat, that's her maiden name, and she was born on July 18th, 1911 in Indore, which is a city in the central state of Madhya Pradesh in India. By the way, I have to say, since I'm Indian, I feel like I have a little bit of a leg up on the pronunciation of all of these names... Maria Sisneroz (04:27) This time. Aarati Asundi (04:29) This time, but I may still get... things a little bit wrong because I'm very Americanized. So I'm sorry. I'm doing my best to pronounce things correctly. And hopefully I do my country proud. We'll see. OK. So her family was well respected in their community and had a background. Her mother was named Lakshmi Bhai and her father, Narayan Rao, and her were both chemists. They had both gone to the Bombay University for college and were some of the first students to graduate with degrees in chemistry from the Tata Institute of Sciences, which is now the Indian Institute of Sciences or IISc in Bangalore. And just really quickly, I want to mention, I'm saying Bombay because that's what it was called back then. Now it's called Mumbai. But back then, the official name for the city was Bombay. So I'm just referring to it as that because that's the time she lived in. Eventually, her uncle Narayanrao set up his own soap making business. So they're really well respected. They're doing well for themselves, very like high status here. Kamala was a quiet girl. She enjoyed playing tennis and she actually became quite good at it, even when she got a lot older. So she would play tennis like throughout college and then even in her professional life, it was a really good way for her to unwind. And she deeply admired her father and uncle. She wanted to be just like them and her family somewhat unconventionally for the time, I feel like were very encouraging of both of their daughters, both Kamala and her older sister Durga were encouraged to pursue an education. Kamala was especially brilliant as a student and consistently got the highest grades in the school. After grade school, she attended the Bombay University just like her father and uncle did. And once again, she excelled. She was at the top of her class. she got her bachelor's degree in chemistry and physics and she's just, you know, soaring. So everything is going according to plan. She's literally following her father and uncle's footsteps. And so in 1933, when she's 22 years old, she applies to the Indian Institute of Sciences in Bangalore, just like they did. Um, and she's pursuing getting her master's degree. And she figured this is going to be a cakewalk because she has the highest marks in school in getting her bachelor's degree. Her grades are top notch. And she comes from this really well-known, ⁓ well-off kind of family. So she should be a shoo-in. But to her shock, she was immediately rejected by the director of the Institute, Chandrasekhara Venkata Raman, who rejected her purely based on the fact that he didn't think women were competent enough to handle lab research. And I thought this was interesting because Chandrasekhara Raman himself was a trailblazer. He was the first Indian director of the IISC. if you look at the history of where we are right now, India is kind of just starting to fight for its independence from the British. And so the previous three directors of the IISC had all been British know, like there's this really strong push, I think, to get Indians back into positions of power, back into government, back into leading these big institutions. And so for him to be the first one to come after three British directors is a big deal. So he's breaking that barrier, kind of. He's also the first Asian Nobel Prize laureate. So in 1930, he won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his work in spectroscopy and light scattering. So he's absolutely breaking through all of these barriers, being the first at doing things. And yet he's creating barriers for other people. So he is kind of still conservative in that way that he doesn't think women are going to be good enough to do scientific work. And yet he's like the first Asian person breaking through these like, you know, ⁓ barriers set up by this Western world. So I just thought it was like an interesting kind of dichotomy there. Maria Sisneroz (09:06) Different minorities. Aarati Asundi (09:08) Yes, yeah. Maria Sisneroz (09:09) Because, I mean, I think that's how it is in regular life too, right? Aarati Asundi (09:13) Mm-hmm. Maria Sisneroz (09:13) Like even in present times, strangely there are those who are part of a minority that maybe they're like breaking through something new, but like they still have their own biases against other minorities. And it never makes sense. Like we're all... Aarati Asundi (09:29) Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (09:30) ...the same. You, who have gone through this issue, should understand that... Aarati Asundi (09:35) Yes. Yes! Maria Sisneroz (09:37) That like you need to give people a break in some instances... or maybe not. I mean, not necessarily a break but like you shouldn't hold them to a higher standard just because they have... or to a different standard, not even necessarily higher, but just to a different standard because they're in some way different. But that's how it works. Aarati Asundi (09:53) Yeah, it's like, why do you have this prejudice just because of a different gender or different skin color or something that doesn't have anything to do with how competent you are, how smart you are, how caring you are. It has nothing to do with that. So it's just kind of a weird then he's like... Maria Sisneroz (10:09) But I think probably in the early... in the early 1900s, there was a lot of...I'll just say like negativity towards like women being involved in higher education and being involved in the workplace or anything outside of the home. Aarati Asundi (10:29) Oh 100%. Maria Sisneroz (10:30) Yeah and I feel yeah I feel like even seeing you in your family setting because that's my honestly that's my only insight into Indian culture is just your family. And well fortunately your family like your immediate family I think is very non-traditional, which is really nice, but I hear lot of stories from you about some of the expectations or burdens that are placed on you just because you're a woman. Still, to this day, like as compared to your brother, who is in a very similar situation in some senses, ⁓ and is not placed under the same microscope or pressure because he's not a woman, and so even if he doesn't do the things that you're expected to do, he's gonna be fine because he's a man. But because you're a woman, you're not gonna survive. Aarati Asundi (11:08) He'll be okay. Yes, everyone's worried. Yes, it's definitely, it is definitely, yeah, you're right. Like my family is very, open and not as quote unquote traditional or not very like strict in that sense. But I do feel sometimes that there is a, like, there is a difference in the way that I'm treated versus how my brother is treated. And like the questions that people ask me versus the questions they ask him about like, "How's your life going?" There's always that undercurrent of like, "Are you getting married anytime soon? Are you going to have children?" And for him, it's all like, "How's work going? How are you doing? And I'm like, I have work too. I have a career too. Maria Sisneroz (11:49) You both have PhDs! Aarati Asundi (11:51) No one's asking him all about that. So yeah, it is very different. And I can only imagine in the 1930s, especially in India, it was so much worse that the entire Indian society was like, women can't do science. It's not just this guy, it's everybody. The entire infrastructure, the entire society... Maria Sisneroz (12:14) Exactly. Aarati Asundi (12:14) ...is set up that way to be like, women in science? No. And the fact that CV Raman could even say, no, you're not eligible for enrollment at this institute because you're a woman kind of shows you that there were no women at the Institute. There's not like, she's the first one applying and you know, he thinks that I can reject you because of that. But Kamala refused to accept his refusal. So she decided to take a leaf out of one of her hero's books, Mahatma Gandhi, who, you know, is very much at the forefront of history right now. He's leading the charge against the British right now. And so she's very patriotic and she's following his teachings and what talking about. So she decided to do exactly what he's doing to the British, she decides to do to C.V. Raman. And she staged what's called a "satyagraha", which is a peaceful protest, basically. So she went to the Institute and sat outside of Raman's office and demanded to know why he thought a woman would any less competent than a man in a research lab. And since he wasn't really able to provide any official justification, because there was like nothing in the admission rules about only men being allowed to be enrolled or anything like that. He really doesn't have a official leg to stand on. And she's extremely persistent. He eventually granted her permission to enroll in the Institute, but he had some conditions. Maria Sisneroz (13:50) Of course. Aarati Asundi (13:52) Yes, you can't just be a normal student. First of all, you have to spend one year on probation. And after that year, if Raman was satisfied with her sincerity and her ability to do research work, by the end of the year, she would be allowed to be a regular student and pursue research like any of her other male colleagues were able to do immediately. And secondly, she quote, "must not be a distraction to her male colleagues" end quote. Kamala said, quote, "Although Raman was a great scientist, he was very narrow minded. I can never forget the way he treated me just because I was a woman. Even then Raman didn't admit me as a regular student. This was a great insult to me. The bias against women was so bad at that time. What can one expect if even a Nobel Laureate behaves in such a way?" End quote. So she was humiliated by these conditions, but she agreed. And once she joined the Institute, she was more determined than ever to prove Raman wrong. She found a mentor named Sri Srinivasa, who was very strict and demanded a lot from his students, but at the same time taught them a lot and encouraged them to read groundbreaking papers in biochemistry and even correspond with the authors. So she worked extremely hard and finally after a year, Director Raman was convinced that she was not only dedicated, but in fact did have what it took to become a lab researcher. And he not only gave her full status as a biochemistry student, but from that year forward, he also started accepting applications of women students and eventually even had a few women in his own lab. And so Kamala's efforts directly made it a lot easier for many aspiring women scientists in India. So I thought that was nice. He can be taught. He can change his mind, which is always good. Maria Sisneroz (15:52) He just needed data. Aarati Asundi (15:54) Yes, exactly. So Kamala continued to work under the guidance of Sri Srinivasayya. And by 1936, she had published five research papers on her work characterizing various proteins and amino acid content milk, legumes, lentils, and seeds. And this was important work to her because it was directly impacting Indians and Indian society because milk, legumes, lentils, these are all really important food groups for Indian people and they're staples of our diet and a very big source of protein for us because a lot of Indians are vegetarian. And so this is like where we get our protein is from lentils and beans and milk and those kinds of things. And so she's the first person to be looking into what kinds of proteins exist in these particular food groups and kind of trying to understand the nutrition behind Indian diets. So it was important to her because she felt like she was helping Indian people and she's very she's also the first person to be kind of looking at this kind of stuff. So. In 1936, Kamala earned her master's degree with distinction and this accomplishment won her, yeah, this accomplishment won her a scholarship to study for her PhD at Cambridge, making her first Indian woman to win this scholarship. So Kamala travels overseas to the UK to study at Cambridge's biochemical and physiological laboratory under Dr. Derek Richter who was a neuroscientist who was studying brain chemistry. Dr. Richter's lab studied an enzyme in the brain called monamine oxidase, which regulates neurotransmitters like epinephrine, serotonin, and dopamine. And Kamala's work involved comparing homologs of monamine oxidase in other animals and characterizing its presence in different organ tissues. A couple of years later, Derek Richter left Cambridge and so Kamala joined another lab headed by Dr. Robert Hill, who for some reason went by Robin. I couldn't figure out why but- Maria Sisneroz (18:08) I had that recently with someone where I guess their first name was...It was really weird because it was like Robert. I'm gonna say Robert. And so I was naming them as Robert blah blah blah. But then someone was like, oh you need to change that in your slides because they don't go by that. They go by Isaiah. I'm like, it's not even their name! Aarati Asundi (18:27) I know! Maria Sisneroz (18:28) Apparently it was his middle name but I had no idea. How am I supposed to know that? Aarati Asundi (18:31) I know. It's not even like Rob or Bob. It's... something. Maria Sisneroz (18:36) Isaiah! Or Robin in your case, yeah. Aarati Asundi (18:40) Robin. I was like, Robert, Robin, but I don't know. briefly. I didn't do a super deep dive into him because I focused on Kamala. Maria Sisneroz (18:52) Maybe he birds. Aarati Asundi (18:55) Maybe. Maria Sisneroz (18:56) Or like maybe your family calls you something like how my family calls me Nena. And like I could have chosen to go by Nena my whole life. Aarati Asundi (19:05) Yeah, you could have. Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (19:05) which I didn't because no thank you, but that ain't my name. Aarati Asundi (19:10) Yeah I don't know why. It just says Robert Hill, known as Robin Hill, was a plant biochemist. I'm like, all right, great. Okay, good. Maria Sisneroz (19:22) Cool cool cool cool. Anyway, sorry. Aarati Asundi (19:24) He was best known for studying respiratory pathways, which is how we breathe and how we exchange gases like oxygen and carbon dioxide. In particular, he studied the hemoglobin protein, which is in our red blood cells and is used for transporting oxygen from our lungs to our tissues. And the myoglobin protein, which is related to hemoglobin because it also binds oxygen, but it's found mainly in our muscle cells and is used to store oxygen rather than transport it around. So if we are exercising or like holding our breath underwater, we have enough oxygen in those situations thanks to myoglobin. So that's kind of like what he's studying these heme proteins. So Robin Hill had published many papers on hemoglobin and myoglobin, and then he turned his attention to plants, which also respirate, but they do the opposite of us, right? Plants absorb carbon dioxide and release oxygen. And so many scientists at the time kind of logically thought that the oxygen that plants were releasing came from the carbon dioxide. They thought that carbon dioxide, which is carbon and two oxygens would split and plant would keep the carbon and release the oxygen. That was kind of the prevailing theory. But in 1937, Robin Hill demonstrated that the in the plant released actually came from water. So he was studying these tiny organelles inside the plants called chloroplasts, is where photosynthesis happens. And inside the chloroplast, there's a pigment called chlorophyll, which we know chlorophyll is what gives plants the green color. And chlorophyll absorbs energy from the sunlight and electrons within the chlorophyll get energized or get excited. And these excited electrons then move to the next step of photosynthesis, which is the electron transport chain. But now chlorophyll is missing its electrons because it just donated them to the electron transport chain. And so the electrons are replaced by splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen and electrons. And those electrons go and fill up the space in chlorophyll. And so that's where the oxygen comes from. And so this reaction is called the Hill reaction. This is what he figured out. And anyone who has studied photosynthesis knows that this is just the first step in a very long, complicated series of reactions that the plant uses to be able to turn sunlight, water, and carbon dioxide into energy. But this is like the first, we're just starting to figure out this whole process. And this is the first part of that process and that's attributed to him. So Kamala now joins his lab in 1937. And she starts studying plant tissues and photosynthesis using potatoes as her model. There's your shirt. Maria Sisneroz (22:29) That's why you wanted potatoes. Aarati Asundi (22:31) I did, yes. And we're going to talk about them again in a second. ⁓ Maria Sisneroz (22:35) I had picked the wrong shirt initially. I was gonna wear my koala one, cause it's cute. Aarati Asundi (22:41) I was debating between that and this one when you told me about that. Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (22:44) Yeah, because there was a little, there was a little koala in a pocket and it's easier to see. There was a little koala eating a little shoot in my little pocket. I think you've seen that one. Aarati Asundi (22:55) Probably, and I feel like at some point I'm going to do an Australian person and then I'm going to want to... I was like, let's save the koala for an Australian scientist. I don't think we've done one of those yet. I'm trying to go worldwide. Maria Sisneroz (23:08) Lots of countries. Aarati Asundi (23:11) I'm trying to branch out. And this is her one of the-biggest discoveries that she's known for and all these experiments were done in potatoes. So I was like, I think we should do your Darth Tater shirt. So She discovered an enzyme cytochrome C, which is crucial to respiration, plant respiration, but respiration and human function. So Cytochrome C had initially been discovered in mammalian cells in the 1920s by a British scientist named David Keilin and was shown to be part of our respiratory system. Kamala's discovery that cytochrome C existed in plants as well showed just how important this protein was because it's conserved across such a wide range of species. It's like in plants, it's in animals, it's in fungi, it's in unicellular amoebas, it's in whales, it's like in every organism practically. And so we're talking about one of these proteins that has been just crucial to life since life began almost, you know, and has stayed with us through millennia of evolution and species diverging. So her discovering it in plants kind of led people to wake up a bit about cytochrome C and be like, "whoa, this is a really important protein. It's in plants too? That's crazy." And the reason cytochrome C is so important is because it prevents ourselves, our cells, from building up damage from oxidative stress during respiration. So there's a particular part of respiration in mammals and photosynthesis in plants called the electron transport chain, which we just talked about. ⁓ And it's pretty much what it sounds like. It's made up of four protein complexes all in a row, and they're embedded inside an inner membrane inside of chloroplasts and mitochondria. And its job is to use high energy unpaired electrons to pump hydrogen protons from one side of the membrane to the other. And that creates this gradient of hydrogen protons, which can then be used to create energy for the cell. This was going all the way back to me for like to undergrad when we learned about photosynthesis in high school and undergrad. And I was like, what is going on? And then I never looked at it again. So I needed to kind of brush up on my photosynthesis. I was like, what is happening again? So I found this video on a YouTube channel from a channel Dr. Matt and Dr. Mike. And in this video, Dr. Mike compared the electron transport chain proteins to these little things playing hot potato, which I thought was a good analogy, and again, goes back to your shirt. So basically what's happening is you have these four protein complexes. The first protein complex gets some unpaired electrons. It plays hot potato with them for a bit, and it gets all excited playing hot potato, but it can't hold on to the electrons for too long because they're "hot" quote unquote, they're reactive. And so if it holds onto them for too long, it's going to build up oxidative stress, which is not good. So complex I passes the electrons off to complex II. But now complex I is all excited. So it can now pump protons across the membrane that it's sitting in. And those protons can be used to generate energy for the cell. And I am skipping over so much here. This is like bird's eye view. I know there's so many reactions happening here that I'm not getting into. So now protein Complex II has the electrons. It plays hot potato with them. It gets excited off the electron to Complex III, which also plays hot potato with them, gets excited. And now runs into an issue because Complex III wants pass these two unpaired electrons to Complex IV. But complex 4 can only accept electrons one at a time. And also, the space between Complex III and Complex IV is pretty big. So just releases both electrons at once, at least one of them, is going to have nowhere to go because Complex IV only accepts one at a time. And also there's every chance that one or both of them will get lost along the way and kind of end up bouncing around the cell and causing oxidative stress damage, which is not good. So instead, Complex III passes its electrons one at a time to cytochrome C. And cytochrome C delivers them one at a time to Complex IV. And so it's facilitating this transfer of electrons between these protein complexes and making sure that these electrons get to where they need to go without causing damage. And so you can see why evolutionarily we've hung on to it, right? It's like a super important protein. It's protecting our cells. And actually more recently I saw in 1996 a scientist named Xiaodong Wang showed that is also used to regulate cell death in mammalian cells when the cell does build up too much stress or damage. So really important protein that she discovered in plants. Do you remember any of this vaguely at all? Because I know you also haven't studied photosynthesis for a while probably. Maria Sisneroz (28:56) Yeah, I do. It's been a long time, but like my undergrad was in bio, so we definitely went through this a lot, and I was a TA, so at that point I knew it quite well. Now, like as you're bringing up, like, okay, I kinda remember some of this stuff. Aarati Asundi (29:14) Sounds vaguely familiar. Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (29:17) Yeah, I'm more of a visual learner. So if it was written down and I saw a picture of it, I think I'd be like, yeah, I got this. Yeah, I probably have to like look through it a little bit, but yeah, there's a lot of stuff in there that's very familiar. Aarati Asundi (29:36) Yeah, when I was looking at the YouTube videos, I was like, oh my God, this would have been so helpful when I was actually studying it in undergrad. Having these videos would have been so useful. Maria Sisneroz (29:47) Yeah, because back in the day we had to like... I never had videos. But like, I would, or you would get videos from like teachers who would have them and it's like, great, there's a video. But usually it's like, okay, I need to like remember what this diagram looks like and then I would have to like draw it, but my drawing is horrendous. So it was like hit or miss. The book, the books are, that was where textbooks actually were helpful. Cause like now I find I don't look at textbooks as much because it's like, this textbook is so so I can find better information on the internet. But back then it was like the textbook must be good because I need to be able to like visualize this. Aarati Asundi (30:25) Yes, yeah. For me, was like, there were so, like especially when I was studying or like when I was researching this story and they were talking about how she discovered cytochrome c and cytochrome c sits between Complex III and Complex IV. And I was trying to understand why it did that because it's like there's four complexes, the electrons go from Complex I to Complex II and then Complex II to Complex III and then Complex III to cytochrome C. And I'm like, why does it not go directly from III to IV, just like it did from I to II and II to III? I was just like, it doesn't make sense. I think before, that why question was not answered in the textbook or was not answered by the professor during his lecture, it would bother me and bother me. And I would just be like, I don't understand this. This is too complicated. Why does this exist? And now I can just go and like, can find a video on cytochrome C, like not even photosynthesis, not even the electron transport chain on cytochrome C itself and figure out like why it acts the way it does, why it's important, you know, and that was just something we never had. And I even saw comments on these YouTube videos that I was watching saying like, you know, I've been struggling with this for 12 hours trying to read the textbook and your video just explained it in 12 minutes and I'm like, where was that when I needed it? Life was so hard. Maria Sisneroz (31:57) Life has changed. ⁓ Aarati Asundi (31:58) It has. Knowledge is so much more easily accessible now. Maria Sisneroz (32:04) I feel like the younger generations, like Kai and even like a generation below us who grew up with all this technology and all this information, they have so much... I mean, I'm not gonna say that they're going to do it, but there is at least the potential for them to like know way more than we do and that way more than we ever could because they can get the information distilled and not have to spend so much time trying to figure out why. Cause like I feel the way that information can be presented now, it's like you can get a topic super fast because you can get into the weeds as quickly as you need as like as you can watch a video essentially. Whereas back then for us, it's like the only people we really had to ask were like our teacher who may not even be an expert at it. And then the textbook and then it's like you go to a library and it's like, where do I even start to get more information? Aarati Asundi (32:55) Yeah, exactly. Maria Sisneroz (32:57) So we had like this limit on how quickly we could learn things or how in depth we could learn things. And now it's like, it's just out there. I think the big thing is whether or not the next generation is as interested in getting into the weeds and then moving forward with it, or if they just are happy to have the information that they have. Aarati Asundi (33:13) And also, I don't think this is as big of a problem in science and biology per se, but just who's putting that information out there and is it accurate? Because... Maria Sisneroz (33:24) Yes, and that's where it gets even worse now, because like, there's a lot of garbage online. We should be teaching people earlier, like how to look through that data, through that information to know what is actually the truth and what is false. Because like you asked ChatGPT something or you look up before, I think as we were getting older, was like Wikipedia. That was kind of where it started. Like people would just make up citations or do whatever they wanted. But now it's like, you look at Chat GPT and like other solutions like that. And you don't know what their training data set was. Like you don't know where they get their information from. I think there's a lot of scraping of the internet. And so was like a lot of the stuff on the internet is not correct. So. Aarati Asundi (34:11) Yeah, and sometimes ChatGPT, I was talking about this with Arpita in one of our previous episodes where it sometimes just makes stuff up just based on what it thinks... Maria Sisneroz (34:21) Yeah, hallucinations. Aarati Asundi (34:22) Yeah, exactly, what it thinks should be the right answer and it presents it so confidently sometimes it's like, yes, this is what happens. This is how it is. And you're like, can I get a source for that? And they're like, we just assumed that that's how it works because that's how a lot of other things work and so we're going to assume that this is how this works and we're like, you can't assume that though, you can't say that that's true, you know? Maria Sisneroz (34:46) I just did. Aarati Asundi (34:47) Yeah, exactly. Maria Sisneroz (34:48) It's definitely a double edged sword. Aarati Asundi (34:52) Mm-hmm, 100%. Yeah, so let's see. Where was I? Maria Sisneroz (35:00) You just finished discussing the- Aarati Asundi (35:01) Oh, yes. Maria Sisneroz (35:02) Go ahead. Aarati Asundi (35:02) I got it. So Kamala discovers cytochrome C in plants. And this really helped us understand photosynthesis better. because of her remarkable work, Robin Hill and her other mentors at Cambridge suggested that Kamala should apply for a fellowship to do her PhD at Cambridge under Frederick G. Hopkins who had won the Nobel Prize in 1929 alongside Christiaan Eijkman for discovering vitamins. And so Kamala applied for and won the fellowship and she started working in the Hopkins lab, continuing to characterize cytochrome C in plants. And it took her only 14 months to earn her PhD. Whereas other people, like you know, I think I spent like six years getting mine. And even in the 1920s, 1930s, people were spending at least three or four years to get their PhD. So for her to get it in 14 months is kind of crazy. It made her the first Indian woman ever to earn a PhD in science. And she wrote up her discovery and published it along with Robin Hill in 1939 in the journal Nature. Aarati Asundi (36:25) Hi everyone, Aarati here. I hope you're enjoying the podcast. If so, and you wish someone would tell your science story, I founded a science communications company called Sykom, that's S-Y-K-O-M, that can help. Sykom blends creativity with scientific accuracy to create all types of science, communications, content, including explainer videos, slide presentations, science, writing, and more. We work with academic researchers, tech companies, nonprofits, or really any scientists. To help simplify your science, check us out at sykommer.com. That's S-Y-K-O-M-M-E r.com. Back to the story. Aarati Asundi (37:12) So all in all, Kamala was at Cambridge for only about 16 months. afterwards she started receiving job offers from everywhere across US and Europe. But to many people's surprise, she opted to go back to India. Maria Sisneroz (37:28) Knew it. Aarati Asundi (37:29) Yep. I think, again, this is because of her character. People were surprised because she's opting to go back to pre-independence India, where Indians are struggling still to take back their government and education infrastructure from the British. And so there is no real good, like there's not really many scientific resources in India at this time. So had she stayed in Europe or if she had gone to America, she absolutely would have had a brilliant career. She could have taken advantage of a lot more developed scientific infrastructure that would have been around. A lot more resources would have been available to her. But years later, her son said, quote, "She was patriotic and actually returned home from Cambridge to give her might to the freedom movement. She was very influenced by the Mahatma and did take part in rallies in Bombay." And apparently she even gave up wearing fancy clothes and opted for homespun cotton saris, drawing inspiration from Gandhi as well, because Gandhi was well known for dressing in homespun you know, cotton clothing that he himself made, a very minimalistic lifestyle. And so she was really drawing inspiration from him trying to follow in the footsteps and just make India stronger. And so she was like, Hey, I'm this well-educated woman. I have a lot of knowledge. have a lot of passion. And rather than giving that passion and knowledge and hard work to some American pharmaceutical company or European university or something. I'm going to go back to India and help my people and help develop my country. So she went back to India. She worked briefly in Bombay before being appointed head of the new department of biochemistry at the Lady Hardinge Medical College in New Delhi. However, she did not enjoy working there. I guess the environment just didn't feel very supportive or it wasn't a great working environment for whatever reason. So she next got a position as assistant director at the Nutrition Research Laboratory, or NRL, in Coonoor. And here she was able to go back to her original interest in nutrition. Her group was soon publishing papers on biochemistry of different vitamins and proteins in, again, those staple in India like lentils and beans. So she's gone back to that kind of research. And her lab was also heavily focused on developing more accurate ways to measure how much of a certain vitamin was in different foods. Because I think we've talked about this before also on the podcast, like back in the 1930s, 40s, there was no standardization really for measuring how much of a certain protein or vitamin existed your foods. so because there's no standardization, like that makes it hard to get the right nutrition. And even for medicines and drugs, like if there's no standardization, how do know how much of a certain compound is in this pill that you're taking? So she's working hard on like things like that. How do you accurately measure ⁓ how much of a certain compound is in this thing that you're consuming? But by 1947, Kamala was getting frustrated by the lack of advancement opportunities in her career, and she was seriously considering resigning from the NRL. Also around this time though, she met a man named Madhav Sohonie who was studying actuarial science in London University. And they liked each other and he ended up proposing. And again, I found this really fascinating because this marriage that she entered into kind of broke a lot of societal norms. Maria Sisneroz (41:26) Yeah, she wasn't arranged? Aarati Asundi (41:28) Yeah, it wasn't arranged at all. Like they just met each other, liked each other. Maria Sisneroz (41:33) How old was she? Aarati Asundi (41:34) And that's the other thing. She was 36 at this point. So by many Indian standards, even today, let alone like the 1940s, I think is probably way worse than the 1940s. But even today, that's quite old to be getting married, again, by Indian standards and by traditional societal standards. Y Maria Sisneroz (41:52) So she had kids late. Aarati Asundi (41:55) Mm-hmm. Yeah, she did. But they found each other to be extremely intelligent. It was a good match. ⁓ So they got married. She moved back to her hometown in Bombay. She has two sons, Anil and Jayanth. And by all accounts, she was a very devoted wife and mother. She cooked meals for her family every day. She kept the home clean and functioning. And one more interesting point to note is that this year, 1947, is also the year that India gained its independence from the British. Maria Sisneroz (42:28) Good year for her! Aarati Asundi (42:30) It's a very good year for her. And despite her new young family, she doesn't give up her scientific career, which again is like, you know, I think what a lot of people would have expected, but she's like, heck no, I'm first woman to get my PhD, first Indian woman to get my PhD. I'm not giving up on my science career. So she had joined the biochemistry department of the Royal Institute of Science in Bombay, which is now the Institute of Science in Mumbai. And she was continuing to study the nutrient content of three major food groups eaten by poor rural communities in India, including legumes, pulses, and rice flour. And this work caught the attention of India's first president, Dr. Rajendra Prasad. He saw the value of Kamala's work because understanding the nutrition value of foods that were available to poor communities of India could help these communities, keep them nourished and healthy. And he's the president. That's kind of his job to take care of the people. So he specifically asked if she would look into the nutritional value of Neera, which is a drink that is made from palm tree sap. So palm trees and coconut trees grow wild all over India. And President Prasad suggested that if they could understand its nutritional value, they could maybe commercialize it in a way that was beneficial to poor and more malnourished communities. So of course, Kamala was like anything for my country. And also this president who has been instated by my hero Mahatma Gandhi, right? Cause he's like the first president to take over of course, he has Mahatma Gandhi's blessing. And so Kamala is like, yes, I will absolutely do whatever you ask of me. So she started studying palm tree sap and found that it was very rich in vitamin A, vitamin C, and iron. And what's more, the sap could be concentrated down into molasses and palm sugar, which is known as jaggery, and retain its nutritive value. Have you had jaggery at my house? Maria Sisneroz (44:40) Yeah. Aarati Asundi (44:41) You've seen it, right? Like those big brown chunks of sugar. Maria Sisneroz (44:45) Yep. Interesting. Aarati Asundi (44:46) so very, very nutritious. Maria Sisneroz (44:48) I had no idea. I just thought it was sugar. Aarati Asundi (44:52) Yeah, it's an unrefined form of sugar, but it has a lot more vitamins and minerals in it, and so is therefore, quote unquote, healthier sugar for you, you know? Maria Sisneroz (45:03) If you're gonna have sugar, should have this sugar. Aarati Asundi (45:05) Yeah. Exactly. So she started working on introducing Neera as like a nutritional drink supplement to rural tribes of India, especially focusing on pregnant women and children. And this basically eradicated malnourishment in these populations. that's, I think it wasn't just, I don't think it was just palm sap. I think she mixed in like rice flour and some like lentils that she had known have beneficial properties from her other research, but she made like this kind of drink supplement that she would give to these populations. It was super cheap and it significantly improved people's health in these communities. And because of this work, Kamala ended up receiving the Rastrapati Award, which is an award given by the president of India for this achievement. Despite all of this though, Kamala still faced prejudice in her career. She was eventually appointed as Director of the Royal Institute of Science, but her promotion was delayed by four years for really no good reason. Just again, because she's a woman and people are biased and people don't think that a woman should hold the position of director of such a you know, great scientific institute. But she made history by becoming the first woman director of such a large scientific institute in India. Maria Sisneroz (46:34) How has misogyny, like, not gone away yet? Aarati Asundi (46:37) I know, right? Because we're still in the 1950s right now, Maria Sisneroz (46:40) Yeah. Well, now I mean, even now.... Aarati Asundi (46:41) and that was 75 years ago. Maria Sisneroz (46:45) Yeah, exactly. Like it should have been fixed by now. Aarati Asundi (46:49) Yeah! Maria Sisneroz (46:50) But the crazy thing is people will claim that misogyny isn't a thing. The thing that drives me like crazy, when I talk to women who say like, I've not experienced it so I don't think it's a real thing and I'm like, number one, you probably have experienced it but you're used to it. Aarati Asundi (47:05) Yeah, you just don't realize it. Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (47:07) Yeah, and like, or maybe you're like, "Oh, what I'm experiencing is actually based on my ability" and it's like, you're looking at this through any other lens you would realize. Or people who don't fight for it because it doesn't directly affect them in their everyday life. I feel like we need to watch out for each other, but there isn't that desire to do that in our culture, which is a little surprising. Aarati Asundi (47:36) It's a little weird. Have you seen there's like a video that was going around of this? I'm not sure. It's a couple of years old at this point, but like one of those street reporters was going around and asking people at a Republican rally, whether a woman could be president. And a woman was like, no, a president is a man's job because women are too emotional and too irrational. And I'm like, you were fed that by men. Like men are the ones who are saying that women are too irrational and too emotional and now you're repeating it. But you are a woman. Like, do you feel, do you honestly feel that way that you more emotional and more irrational than men are? Like, it's, it's very bizarre to me when I see women who are actively fighting against their own interests. It's so strange. Maria Sisneroz (48:29) It is. It's a little confusing sometimes. Aarati Asundi (48:31) Like it would be like me saying like I don't think Indians should have a PhD. Like Indians should not be doing science like... Maria Sisneroz (48:39) But the thing is though, that's how it is. There are some people who believe that. And like, I'm very much of the opinion that everyone should have their own beliefs and that's okay if you have your own beliefs. But I'm just sometimes very shocked. Because it's like, but why though? Like, why are you saying that? Or like, I may not understand it but it's- Aarati Asundi (49:03) Like, where does this come from? Yeah, it's very strange. I'm trying to educate myself a little bit more on how those kinds of people think and like when people say that, where is that coming from and what gave them that belief? And it's just, but it's just so weird to me because it's just... It's almost like studying an alien race sometimes because I'm like, it's such a different way of thinking than I have that I just cannot fathom. Maria Sisneroz (49:31) It's really interesting, like how ⁓ your surroundings impact who you become. Because like, you even just look at how two people in two different households come out when they're adults and like what their beliefs are. And then it's even crazier because oftentimes I'll be like, yeah, you probably were raised in a very conservative household versus like a more liberal household. Like if you look at two people and like their opinions. But then there are some people who come out of very conservative households like the exact opposite or from very liberal households that come out the exact opposite as well. And it's like.... Aarati Asundi (50:06) Yeah. Have you seen this podcast that's like little clips of this podcast are going viral called The Necessary Conversation, where it's like these two, siblings, a brother and a sister, and they're very liberal, and they're talking to their parents who are very conservative, and they just have such diametrically opposite views. And it's just like, how did two kids come from those parents? You would expect the kids to follow the same ideology as the parents, but they don't at all. It's just completely opposite. And it's so fascinating to listen to. Maria Sisneroz (50:44) I think it's culturally maybe like what you're surrounded by and then it makes you like kind of understand like why some people choose to homeschool. Aarati Asundi (50:55) Yeah, yeah. Maria Sisneroz (50:56) because then there is no outside influence. Like from both sides I think I've heard it from both sides which is kind of interesting where it's like you don't want that outside influence on your children and all of that but I know. I obviously have my opinion. But this is not a political podcast, so... Aarati Asundi (51:14) Yes. It's not. But I was, speaking of politics, I was actually drawing comparisons obviously to Kamala Harris because they have the same name. Kamala Sohonie is first woman to get her PhD. And she's done all this amazing research. She's discovered cytochrome C in plants, which is this huge thing. She's helping her country. She's helping the people of her country by creating these nutritional supplements. So she's really doing all this amazing research. She's worked with Nobel laureates. She convinced a Nobel laureate to let her into university. And yet, despite all of this, people are like, well, I don't think necessarily need to be Director of this Royal Institute of Science because you're a woman. And it's like, literally who else is more qualified? And it just made me think of Kamala Harris because I'm like, She's done so much. She's done so much for the country. She is such, you know, she's so educated. ⁓ And she was vice president. Like literally how much more qualified do you need to be to be president? And yet people are like, but is she qualified though? And I'm like, Why are you saying that? Why have we not moved at all in 75 years? Why have we not progressed at all? Why are we still asking the same question because she's a woman, because she's an Indian woman? Like, are you qualified to hold this position? Which you would never ask a man. You would never ask that of a man. So it's just kind another reason I wanted to cover this story, because I'm like, it's still pertinent today. It's still, unfortunately, it's still a conversation that needs to be had. Maria Sisneroz (53:03) Yeah. Aarati Asundi (53:04) Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (53:08) And I mean, we can go into that whole thing for quite a while, but, like, obviously there was more to it than that. ⁓ But the fact that that was the emphasis, or that was one of the things that people glommed onto as a reason why they wouldn't vote or why they didn't vote, ⁓ is... Aarati Asundi (53:26) Yes, yes. Maria Sisneroz (53:27) ...interesting. There were other, I think, very valid reasons to not vote for her. But if we're going to be looking at actual intellect, and capability and experience, like I think that's not the right thing to focus on, in my opinion, for that one. And I feel like that's what they tend to do with women. Aarati Asundi (53:48) Yeah. You're right. There were so many reasons she didn't win and we're not a political podcast. We're not getting into that. It is just so weird to me that, yeah. Maria Sisneroz (54:00) But the fact that they even focused on that kind of thing, when that shouldn't have even been a question, like it should... There are other reasons why to not vote for her, but like why are we focusing on that? Just because she's a woman. And so like you hold her to a different standard. Because if you looked at those things for the opponent, like... Anyway. Aarati Asundi (54:18) Yeah, exactly. The question of her qualification should never have been an issue at all. Yeah why are you talking about her qualification? She's obviously qualified. Move on. Next point. That's not a reason not to vote for her. Maria Sisneroz (54:30) Anyway. Aarati Asundi (54:31) Yeah. So back to Kamala Sohonie. So Kamala Sohonie did actually end up belatedly becoming the first woman director of the Royal Institute of Science. And she continued her research into food and nutrition for the rest of her career. She became an advisor to the Milk Project Factory in Bombay. And she helped develop protocols to maintain the quality of their milk. And in general, she fought for high food quality standards in Indian food. And this is a few decades after the Harvey Washington Wiley fight, which we talked about in episode 22 for US food standards and like the founding of the FDA. But it's all kind of the same general idea. Just we need to stop adding weird additives and preservatives into our food and selling them to unsuspecting consumers. And consumers have a right to know what they're ingesting and what they're putting into their bodies. So from 1982 to 1983, she served as president of the Consumer Guidance Society of India. She also designed a home kit for people to be able to test the purity of certain food ingredients. Maria Sisneroz (55:49) What did that look like? Aarati Asundi (55:50) The home kit? Maria Sisneroz (55:51) Yeah, I'm kind of curious, like, how big was it? What did it consist of? Like, you just hand it out to people, here's your home kit for testing the purity of your food. ⁓ Aarati Asundi (56:01) Yeah, I know. ⁓ And when I was reading about I kind of got the impression that it was more for like certain food ingredients. Like you can test the purity of your salt or you can test the purity of your flour, which is things that people would use to then make their food. But I don't know what it looked like or how that would work. I guess it would be maybe dependent on what kinds of things were added into the flour or added into the salt to fool customers because we were talking about this again in episode 22 about Harvey Wiley Washington and about how they would put brick dust into cinnamon. And so I wonder if there was some sort of way that you could like take a pinch of cinnamon and sprinkle it in water or something. And then all the bricks would like go to the bottom and the cinnamon would stay on top. And then based on that, you would know that your cinnamon isn't pure or something like that. I guess it would be different for like, depending on what they added into salt, depending on what people added into flour, you would develop a different test for each of those to test the purity. But she also did a lot of work around communicating the importance of good food to less educated populations. And she worked on making that knowledge accessible to them including writing several magazine articles on consumer safety. So another science communicator in our midst. So it took until the 1990s for Indian society as a whole to really start to overcome their biases against women in science. And I'm not saying that, again, like it's not perfect. We have a long way to go. But at least in the 1990s, they started really accepting women in science. And in 1997, Kamala was awarded the National Award for Excellence and Contribution to Science. However, while she was attending the ceremony in New Delhi, she collapsed, and a few days later, she passed away. Maria Sisneroz (58:01) Oh no. Aarati Asundi (58:02) Yeah. Maria Sisneroz (58:03) That's sad. Aarati Asundi (58:04) She was 86 years old. And that is the story of Kamala Sohonie, the woman who stood up to the Nobel Prize Laureate, became the first Indian woman to get a PhD, and paved the way for women like me to get into STEM. Maria Sisneroz (58:21) It's funny, this story makes me think a lot of your mom. Aarati Asundi (58:25) Yeah? Maria Sisneroz (58:26) Like there are a lot of like parallels in terms of like, She was not gonna be able to get her master's. Which is crazy. Aarati Asundi (58:32) Yeah she fought to get her master's. Maria Sisneroz (58:33) I can't believe your mom doesn't have a PhD. It's ridiculous. Aarati Asundi (58:36) I know. Maria Sisneroz (58:37) With all of her experience and how intelligent she is, she should have gotten a PhD, but this is an example of how women were held back. Because your mom is one of the smartest people I know. But like... Aarati Asundi (58:48) I know. I told, I was like, there needs to be a track that if you work for long enough in science, you just get a PhD even if you've like, you know, gone to school for it or not, because working in the industry, you kind of get the same knowledge and same, you know... Maria Sisneroz (59:00) And she's researching, it's the same. You're on papers. Aarati Asundi (59:01) Yeah, it's the same. It's the same. Yeah. You write papers, you research, you find out more about the world, you develop this way of critical thinking. Eventually you'll get it. Like there should be a thing that if you spend 10 years or something in the industry, you get an automatic PhD. That's just my... Maria Sisneroz (59:15) Well and the other part too that I felt really mirrored her was like, she had a family but then she still kept going and like she didn't be like, well now that I have a family, it's all going down the drain. It's like, no, I wanna be a scientist. I care about science. I'm gonna continue doing this and look at her now. Aarati Asundi (59:33) I want to have a career. Yes. Maria Sisneroz (59:36) Yeah. Aarati Asundi (59:36) Yeah. So did feel like my mom's going to really, really like this episode. And so I was like, I'm going to keep it a surprise for her. Maria Sisneroz (59:43) Yeah, from the beginning I was like, aw man, I'm thinking about Jyoti, like this is like her, but different. Aarati Asundi (59:50) Yeah, it really is. And it's one of the reasons I admire her because own barriers in a way to give me an easier life. I feel like that's... Maria Sisneroz (1:00:00) Yes, 100%. Aarati Asundi (1:00:01) Kamala Sohonie did that for women trying to get an education, especially at that specific institute, the Institute of Sciences. But yeah, there's no way that I could be where I am if my mom didn't show courage and show bravery and break through the barriers that were trying to hold her back and then make sure that those same barriers didn't come into my life. So eternally grateful. Maria Sisneroz (1:00:40) Thanks for listening! If you have a suggestion for a story we should cover or thoughts you want to share about an episode, reach out to us at smartteapodcast.com. You can follow us on Instagram, TikTok and blue sky @smartteapodcast, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. And leave a rating or comment, it helps us grow. New episodes are released every other Wednesday. See you next time!