Aarati Asundi (00:12) Hi everyone and welcome back to the Smart Tea Podcast where we talk about the lives of scientists and innovators who shape the world. I'm Aarati. Jyoti Asundi (00:20) I'm Jyoti, her mom. Aarati Asundi (00:22) Hey mom, guess what? Jyoti Asundi (00:24) What? Aarati Asundi (00:24) We got a really amazing comment on our YouTube channel on one of our shorts I wanted to share with you. Jyoti Asundi (00:32) Yes, yes, please. Aarati Asundi (00:24) The username is Michelle Blau and she wrote on one of our shorts about William Dement who is one of our previous episodes. Jyoti Asundi (00:44) The sleep guy! Yes! Aarati Asundi (00:46) Yes, he's the sleep doctor. Yeah. in that episode, maybe you'll remember William Dement was giving a presentation on narcolepsy and showing a video at the conference about his narcoleptic patients. Jyoti Asundi (01:00) Yeah, the narcolepsy is where the patient has bad sleep patterns. They fall asleep all of a sudden in the middle of things. Aarati Asundi (01:07) Yeah, they fall asleep randomly during the day when they shouldn't. And so he was showing a video of a patient who exhibited that behavior. And in this conference of neuroscientists, there was a neuroscientist who came up to him after he gave that talk and said, I know a dog that exhibits that same behavior. Jyoti Asundi (01:28) Yes, and that led to developing animal models for narcolepsy, for studying narcolepsy. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Aarati Asundi (01:35) Yes, yes, they were able to create a whole line of dogs that were narcoleptic dogs so that they could study the behavior. Jyoti Asundi (01:40) Yeah, yeah, Right, right. Aarati Asundi (01:44) Yes, so Michelle Blau wrote, "The neurologist that spoke about the dog Monique at the conference was my father." Jyoti Asundi (01:53) No way! Oh wow! Aarati Asundi (01:55) Yeah. Jyoti Asundi (01:57) What a lovely connection. my God. ⁓ Aarati Asundi (01:59) Yeah, she says, "We were living in Canada at the time. Thanks for this. I shared it with him. It was one of the highlights of his career." Jyoti Asundi (02:08) Oh my god, Aarati Asundi (02:10) Yeah, so now this is like one of the highlights of my career. Thank you, Michelle. Oh my gosh. Jyoti Asundi (02:13) Yes, yes, yes. Thank you. Thanks you for sharing. Aarati Asundi (02:18) Michelle, your father is amazing. I mean, without him, We never would have had this model organism... Jyoti Asundi (02:24) ...to study narcolepsy. Aarati Asundi (02:27) His one comment, his one piece of advice has helped so many people who are struggling with sleep disorders.So amazing. Yes. Jyoti Asundi (02:35) Wow. ⁓ such wonderful.... This is what this podcast is all about, building a community of loving, caring, sharing people. Aarati Asundi (02:45) Yes, that's amazing comments. I love getting comments like this. So you know someone who we've talked about or you know someone who knew someone, let us know. I'd love to hear it. Jyoti Asundi (02:54) And thank you to Michelle Blau for leaving a comment with us. This really all this effort worthwhile. Thank you. Aarati Asundi (03:04) So mom, today I have a pretty interesting story for you. Jyoti Asundi (03:08) Your stories are always interesting. look forward to our sessions so much. Aarati Asundi (03:14) I'm so glad. Jyoti Asundi (03:15) I enjoy. You are a great storyteller, and I really enjoy you bringing to life the journey of these scientists who are so very inspirational. I just love these stories. Aarati Asundi (03:27) Well, you know, these scientists make it easy because some of them have just had the most fascinating life. I feel like I barely have to do any sort of storytelling at all because their lives are just incredible and their journeys are just incredible. And today's story is definitely one of those. Like I barely had to do any work. She herself is a fantastic storyteller. Her name is Eugenie Clark. She went by Genie, as in Genie with a lamp. Jyoti Asundi (03:58) Genie with the lamp. Aarati Asundi (03:59) Yes. And she's an ichthyologist, which is a fish scientist. Jyoti Asundi (04:04) Oh fish! Okay, okay. Aarati Asundi (04:06) Yeah, so she's a marine biologist, but she's just obsessed with all types of fish. And she was nicknamed the shark lady. Jyoti Asundi (04:18) Oh the shark lady. I think, okay, okay. Clicking, clicking a bit. Okay, wonderful. Aarati Asundi (04:22) Yes. Yes, she became quite famous. So I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere something is... Jyoti Asundi (04:28) Something, something is pinging in my brain. Aarati Asundi (04:28) Yes, something is familiar. Yes. Yes. Jyoti Asundi (04:34) But I don't know her story. I don't know her story for sure. Aarati Asundi (04:37) No, she has an incredible story. So. Jyoti Asundi (04:39) Oh, I'm so excited that you're sharing it with me. Aarati Asundi (04:42) Yeah, I think you're really going to enjoy it. So she was born on May 4th, 1922 in New York City. Her father was an American man named Charles Clark, but he actually died before Genie even turned two years old. So she never really knew him. Genie was raised by her mother, Yumico Motomi, all of her extended family. Jyoti Asundi (05:08) Oh so was she of mixed heritage then? Aarati Asundi (05:11) Yes, Yumico was Japanese, Jyoti Asundi (05:14) There. I... the name sounded like that. Okay, got it. Aarati Asundi (05:18) Yes. Yeah. So they're all Japanese. Her extended family are all Japanese. And because they're from Japan, they have already a very deep appreciation for the ocean. Jyoti Asundi (05:29) Yes. Aarati Asundi (05:30) And the family would go to the beach all the time and go swimming in the ocean. Yumico, the mother, loved swimming in the ocean and taught that to Genie. And so she was just kind of brought up that way with deep respect and appreciation. Jyoti Asundi (05:44) She was a water baby right off the bat. Aarati Asundi (05:47) Although she does say she wasn't great at swimming from the beginning. She found coordination a little bit hard with all her limbs kind of flailing about, like how do you move, But she enjoyed it. She really treasured those childhood memories of going to the beach. When Genie was nine years old, Yumico got a job which required her to work Saturday mornings. So Yumico took Genie to the New York aquarium in Battery Park and told her that she would be back around lunchtime to pick her up. And she just kind of left Genie at the aquarium. Jyoti Asundi (06:23) Oh my God. she was a free range child. Aarati Asundi (06:27) Yeah. Jyoti Asundi (06:28) Those were really good days. I have to say. I would have loved to be in that... have that kind of freedom. As a child, I mean, and also be able to give you that kind of freedom when you were growing up. But no, I kept you on a... I kept you and your brother on a somewhat tight leash. Always, always.... Aarati Asundi (06:46) Yeah, I think the 1980s and 90s when we were growing up as kids, like stranger danger was at its height. And so... Jyoti Asundi (06:54) I agree. Everything was structured and monitored and Aarati Asundi (06:55) Yeah. Jyoti Asundi (06:58) helicopter parenting and all. Aarati Asundi (07:00) Not only would a mother not drop their child but if anyone saw a random nine-year-old child wandering around without a parent, it would become an immediate, like, we need to call Jyoti Asundi (07:09) I agree. Child Protective Services would be immediately called, actually. Yes. Aarati Asundi (07:13) Yeah. very different times. Jyoti Asundi (07:15) But born in 1922, so this is right around 1930. So that's almost 100 years old at this point. That is like 95 years ago. So yeah, things were good at that time, I guess. Yes. Aarati Asundi (07:29) So yeah, her mom just dropped her off at the aquarium, said, I'll be back around lunchtime to pick you up, ⁓ go wander around for a few hours. Jyoti Asundi (07:36) So every Saturday she could just go into the aquarium and relax and enjoy. You can sit for hours watching these fish and their movements. ⁓ Aarati Asundi (07:46) Yes. And that's what she did. She was just absolutely fascinated from the get-go and was particularly interested in watching, like you said, how they swam because she had so much difficulty swimming, but these fish don't have arms and legs to flail around and yet they move through the water with their fins and their tails. Jyoti Asundi (08:05) So graceful. Yes, yes, yes. Aarati Asundi (08:05) so gracefully. Yes. And so she was just fascinated by their movements and how they could swim and she would watch them for hours until her mom came and picked her up. And this soon became a ritual. Every Saturday morning, Yumico would drop Genie off at the aquarium and then afterwards they would go to lunch at a small Japanese restaurant called Fuji. And you know, life is good. Jyoti Asundi (08:32) Wonderful. Aarati Asundi (08:33) And so of course, the next step is pretty soon, Genie starts begging her mom to get a fish tank for their home. Jyoti Asundi (08:39) Yes, step one. Aarati Asundi (08:41) And yeah, naturally. And actually, her mom didn't need much convincing. That year when Christmastime came around, they both went shopping and bought a large tank and a ton of fish Jyoti Asundi (08:54) Yes. Aarati Asundi (08:54) In her autobiographical book, Lady with a Spear, she listed, quote, "a pair of veintailed guppies, black speckled red platies, pale green sword tails, striped danios, head and tail lights, a weird looking scavenger fish with whiskers, and a pair of graceful angelfish. This is their shopping spree of fish that they got for their tank. Jyoti Asundi (09:17) Wow, wow. Almost... they went for almost every color and I can imagine this little fish tank in their home, well even large fish tank whatever it was, almost looking like a coral reef or something with all the myriad colors of the fish. OH my god, beautiful. Aarati Asundi (09:38) Yes. And finally, although at this point they were way over budget, Genie convinced her mom to also get a clownfish, calling it her very early birthday present. Jyoti Asundi (09:49) Yes, get all the fish that you can when mom is in the mood. Good for her. Aarati Asundi (09:53) Yes. And Yumico and Genie were both obsessed with this new hobby and soon they practically had a zoo at their home, which included salamanders, a horned toad, and a little alligator. Jyoti Asundi (10:08) Oh My God. Aarati Asundi (10:10) They had a little baby alligator. Yeah. Jyoti Asundi (10:10) You know, have had good mother daughter bonding. We are so tame in comparison. Aarati Asundi (10:17) I know. Jyoti Asundi (10:18) We go on hikes, we go on walks together. Aarati Asundi (10:21) I still remember the time when I was like seven or eight years old and I won a free goldfish at this little like carnival fair thing that my school put on. And I was like, mom, I won a free goldfish. Let's go get it. And you were like, absolutely not. Jyoti Asundi (10:37) Yes, yes, I crushed, I crushed your dreams without compunction. I was a horrible, horrible mother. Aarati Asundi (10:41) Yes. I was like, but it's free. It's free. No, actually in hindsight, that was absolutely the right decision because the goldfish probably would have died fairly quickly and I would have been heartbroken. Jyoti Asundi (10:53) That was my biggest fear because I didn't have a clue and I knew you didn't have a clue. But you could have been the lady with the spear number two... Aarati Asundi (11:03) I know. Jyoti Asundi (11:03) ...if I had had a little more courage to let you have that goldfish. Aarati Asundi (11:06) Now I'm like the lady with the dog and podcast. I'm happy with that too. Jyoti Asundi (11:10) That works too. Yes, yes. Aarati Asundi (11:13) So the horned toad that she had was particularly interesting because Genie had a hard time getting a hold of the mealworms that it ate. She was like, where do I get these things? Jyoti Asundi (11:24) Yeah! Aarati Asundi (11:25) Until she was introduced to a man named Mr. Stephens, who also had quite a menagerie in his home. He started talking to her about the animals and he told her that all animals were God's creation. And if Genie went with him to church that Sunday on the way home, he would give her enough mealworms to last to the following Sunday. So he was kind of like bribing her to like come to church. Jyoti Asundi (11:52) Bribing her to go to church with him. Yeah uh-huh. Aarati Asundi (11:54) Yes. And because Genie didn't really know much about religion or church, like she vaguely knew that her mom and the Japanese side of her family were somewhat Buddhist, but they weren't very strict about it. And so she's like, okay, church, I guess. And so she quote, "So I start going to church regularly. In addition to mealworms, I sometimes got a bonus of a baby fish or two that had been born during the week in Mr. Stephens' menagerie. Jyoti Asundi (12:24) Oh wow. Aarati Asundi (12:25) Eventually I was baptized for a snake and confirmed for Ditmar's Book of Reptiles. Jyoti Asundi (12:32) What does that mean? "Baptized for a snake" as in? Aarati Asundi (12:35) As in she got baptized on the promise that he would give her a snake and then... Jyoti Asundi (12:40) I got it. I got it now. So he promised her a snake if she would allow herself to be baptized. Aarati Asundi (12:47) Correct Jyoti Asundi (12:47) And then what? What was the other thing? Aarati Asundi (12:48) And confirmed for Ditmar's Book of Reptiles. So again, he like basically bribed her. Jyoti Asundi (12:55) Oh, basically bribed her into the church. Aarati Asundi (12:58) Yes. And she's just like, whatever, I don't care as long as I get my snake and my book. Jyoti Asundi (13:04) Yes her love for fish led her to the church, basically. Aarati Asundi (13:08) But I think for her, she never really got into the church. It was just more of like, okay, fine. You want to pour water on my head and I'll get a snake? Sounds good. You know, like. Jyoti Asundi (13:17) Yes, yes it was it was only a means to an end for her. Aarati Asundi (13:20) Exactly. Yeah I don't think it... like the religion aspect of it didn't seem to really stick, I think Jyoti Asundi (13:27) Which actually sounds OK to me because after all, he was in a way ⁓ bribing her and blackmailing her instead of winning her over spiritually. Although she got nice things out of it. In her mind, it was a decent trade because Aarati Asundi (13:41) Yeah, she was like, whatever. Jyoti Asundi (13:41) she wasn't really... It was just all about the animals. Aarati Asundi (13:45) Yeah. If I have to go to church every Sunday in order to get food for my animals and maybe a new animal here and there, then it's a deal. That's fine with me. In high school, her obsession continued. No matter which class she was in, her mind always wandered over to fish. And even in English class, when they had like an assignment, she would write about fish somehow. She would squeeze it in there somehow. Biology became her favorite subject because... Jyoti Asundi (14:13) Of course. Aarati Asundi (14:13) ...it gave her deeper understanding of the animals and plants that she kept and what exactly was happening when they grew or reproduced. After high school, Genie went to Hunter College, where she majored in zoology. She was particularly inspired by a famous marine biologist, Dr. William Beebe, who explored the ocean in a bathysphere, which long-time listeners will remember that was the same contraption that Jacques Piccard used for his voyage down into the Mariana Trench. So. Jyoti Asundi (14:46) Yes. So basically like an encapsulated... some sort of a capsule that can go wander around in the ocean. Aarati Asundi (14:54) Yes, I'm not sure how much you can steer it around. At least from Jacques Picard's episode, I kind of got the impression that it just went vertically straight up and down, depending on what weights and things that you were using. ⁓ Jyoti Asundi (15:09) Ah! I hear you. Yes. Yes. Aarati Asundi (15:12) Yeah, But I don't think this is the same level of a submarine that you can go wander around. Jyoti Asundi (15:18) Yeah, actually steer around. Okay, okay, I'm with you. Aarati Asundi (15:19) Yes, I don't think so. But by the time she finished college, World War II was underway, and there were very few zoologists, let alone marine biologists, job openings. So her family suggested that maybe if she took some typing classes or something a little bit more feminine, quote unquote. They were thinking like you could become a secretary and get a job working for a marine biologist. You could work for someone like Dr. Beebe. And she hated that. Jyoti Asundi (15:51) Of course. Yeah. Aarati Asundi (15:51) She was like, absolutely not. I don't want to be a secretary to a marine biologist. I want to be a marine biologist. Jyoti Asundi (15:57) I want to be the marine biologist. I want to study them directly. Aarati Asundi (16:01) She also tried applying to Columbia University for graduate school, but she was rejected with one of the scientists who interviewed her saying, quote, "Well, I guess we could take you. But to be honest, I can tell by looking at you, if you finish, you probably will get married and have a bunch of kids and never do anything in science after we have invested our time and money in you>" end quote. Jyoti Asundi (16:25) Oh wow! Oh my God! How horribly sexist about to do that! Aarati Asundi (16:32) Ridiculous. Jyoti Asundi (16:32) That is truly, truly horrible. I have to say, this attitude was prevalent even when I was looking for jobs after my Masters in India. I did encounter this where they would directly ask me... I was very young, was a fresh grad and they would say, "So you going to be married? Because if you're going to be married and you're going to move away because your husband lives somewhere else, then we don't want to hire you." And they would much rather hire a guy. And the guys mostly were... you know, had more and more doors open to them just because they were male and they would very quickly be able to move away to better jobs. Aarati Asundi (17:14) That was never even a question for them that, you know, oh, if we hire you, will you move away or will you leave? Like that kind of question was never even asked of a man. Jyoti Asundi (17:23) Never even asked because they were so strongly supported, the men, they were easily able to take the initial foothold that they obtained in that job and translate it into a better job. Aarati Asundi (17:36) And then that was applauded. They were like, wow, great for you. You're moving up in life. You're climbing the corporate ladder. Good for you. Jyoti Asundi (17:44) Exactly. And in fact, ironically, if they had chosen the woman because doors did not open easily for women, the woman would indeed stay longer. Aarati Asundi (17:52) would have stayed here longer. Yeah. Jyoti Asundi (17:55) So they would have been better off investing in a woman in those days. Aarati Asundi (17:59) Yeah, it's such a weird way of thinking. It's like, if your husband leaves, you might leave too, which is why we don't want to hire you. Whereas the man who is the husband, it's like, they're the ones who doing the leaving, right? But you don't ask them that question. Yeah. Jyoti Asundi (18:12) Yes, you don't ask them. Yeah, you don't ask them. They are the ones who are easily able to parlay their initial foothold in the industry into better input positions. But we can digress a lot on this topic, so let us put a stop to that. Aarati Asundi (18:27) Yes, yes, yeah. But actually after graduating, she did get married to a pilot named Jideo Umaki, but he was deployed a lot of the time leaving Genie on her own. And so she ended up getting a job as a chemist in the plastic research at the Celenese corporation in Newark. She made really good money there, but she just turned around and spent it all on taking graduate classes at NYU in ornithology, endocrinology, and ichthyology. Jyoti Asundi (19:02) Wonderful. Aarati Asundi (19:03) Her ichthyology professor, Dr. Charles M. Breder, was actually the former director of that same aquarium in Battery Park where she hung out as a child. Yeah, so small world. Jyoti Asundi (19:15) Oh nice, lovely, Aarati Asundi (19:18) He soon took notice of Genie and for her love of ichthyology and decided to sponsor her master's research. He introduced her to a group of fish called Plectognaths, which are really quite a diverse family of fish. They're mostly tropical fish that live near coral reefs and the ocean sunfish, which I don't know if you've seen is a really large flat fish without a tail. So it just kind of looks like a big disk. Yeah, big round disk. Jyoti Asundi (19:43) Yeah, big round. Yes, yes, yes, Aarati Asundi (19:46) Yeah, big round disk. But it also includes boxfish, which have 3D box looking shape. Jyoti Asundi (19:53) wow, so interesting. Aarati Asundi (19:56) Yeah, and blowfish or pufferfish... Jyoti Asundi (19:59) Yes, puffer fish, yes. Aarati Asundi (20:00) ...which I think we all know. Genie's master thesis was in studying the pufferfish and how it was able to expand because not much was really known about their anatomy at that time. So she was given a lab space and some specimens that she could pump full of water to see how their extremely elastic stomach was able to expand until the fish was practically a sphere... Jyoti Asundi (20:24) Yeah. Aarati Asundi (20:24) with little pointy spines sticking out of them so that if a predator tried to eat them, it would have a really hard time swallowing them. So that was like their defense mechanism. Jyoti Asundi (20:32) Yes, like a porcupine, practically became like a porcupine. So then the predator also slowly learns not to go near these spiky balls. Aarati Asundi (20:39) Yeah, don't touch these fish. Jyoti Asundi (20:41) Yes, don't worth your time. Aarati Asundi (20:43) Yeah. While she was finishing up her master's thesis, she attended the annual convention for the Society of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists and was introduced to Dr. Carl L. Hubbs, who was a professor at the Scripps Institute of Oceanography in La Jolla, California. Jyoti Asundi (21:00) Okay. Aarati Asundi (21:01) And he offered Genie a part-time research assistant job during the summer. So she found some friends who were also heading west and they took four day long car ride across the country to California. Jyoti Asundi (21:16) Nice. Aarati Asundi (21:17) As Dr. Hubb's assistant, she was given her own small project on the swell shark, which again is a relatively small shark, only about three feet long, which can also swallow huge amounts of water and swell up to ward off predators. Dr. Hubbs also taught Genie how to swim using a face mask so she could see underwater for the first time ever. And then he took it a step further by training her how to use a diving helmet to actually go for deeper dives. So the face mask just lets you see underwater, but you have to keep coming back up for air. Jyoti Asundi (21:53) Yeah. Aarati Asundi (21:53) But then the diving helmet is basically this thing that encapsulates your whole head and it sits on your shoulders and it gives you a supply of oxygen. So it's attached by cords to a boat that's up on the surface and the keeps feeding you oxygen into your helmet so that you can actually spend a prolonged amount of time underwater, exploring the ocean floor and that kind of thing. Jyoti Asundi (22:18) Yes, yes. Oh nice, okay got it. Aarati Asundi (22:23) There's two cords actually that attach the helmet to the boat. One is the one giving air and the other cord is a signal cord that's used for communication. So by tugging on the rope a certain number of times, you could communicate with the boat, telling them that you wanted to move forward or you wanted to be brought back up or whatever it was. Jyoti Asundi (22:43) Yes. Aarati Asundi (22:43) So for her first time using the helmet, she only went down about 30 feet into a kelp forest. Jyoti Asundi (22:48) Oh only 30 feet. Only? Aarati Asundi (22:51) Yes. Only 30 feet. Yes, only 30 feet. So I highly, highly recommend reading Lady with a Spear, which is where I got a lot of this information, because she just goes into so much incredible detail. She really paints a picture. Here's one passage, when she was exploring this kelp forest, she came across a cluster of rocks and she wrote, quote, it had holes in it like windows and lovely lavender sea anemones, abalone, shellfish and sponges decorated it. It was like coming across a gingerbread house in this water forest, but there was no telling what witch of the sea might live there. So I decided not to get too close." end quote. Jyoti Asundi (23:35) Wow, she's almost weaving a fairy tale in a different realm. Wow, wow. Aarati Asundi (23:41) Yeah, she just had such a way with words that she was just so... Like she really brings you into the experience of what it's like exploring the ocean. Jyoti Asundi (23:48) Yes, you can, you can visualize it. She really makes brings it to life in front of your eyes, although I have never been under the water before. Beautiful, lovely. What a talent, what a a gift. Aarati Asundi (24:02) So this is her first dive ever using this helmet. And as she's exploring, she slowly starts to notice that she's having a hard time breathing. So she tries to open the air valve of the helmet more to make it more fully open, but she's still not getting enough air. So she tries to signal that she needs to be pulled back up on by tugging on that signal rope. Jyoti Asundi (24:25) Yes. Yes. Aarati Asundi (24:27) But what she hadn't realized is that while she was walking, the signal rope had got caught around some rocks. And so the people on the boat couldn't feel her tugging. Jyoti Asundi (24:34) Oh so the tugging is not working. Yeah, they can't feel her tug. Aarati Asundi (24:38) So she had to retrace her steps and unwind the rope. Jyoti Asundi (24:43) With less air. Aarati Asundi (24:44) Yes, And she was about to pass out when she finally managed to free the rope and get pulled out of the water. So back on the boat, she told them that something had happened to the air supply. And one of the men on the team said, quote, "just like a girl, to screw the valve the wrong way and cut off the air." Jyoti Asundi (25:03) Sexism at every step. Yeah. Aarati Asundi (25:06) Yeah, but when inspected everything, the air valve was actually fully open and it was a different attachment that had been causing the issue. So it wasn't her fault at all. And there was nothing that she could have really done to have helped herself. Jyoti Asundi (25:22) Did she get an apology? Aarati Asundi (25:24) Maybe, I don't know about if she got an apology from that guy, the one who made the comment, but Dr. Hubbs was very sympathetic towards her and said, that's such a terrible thing to have happened on your very first dive down. Jyoti Asundi (25:38) Yeah. Aarati Asundi (25:39) But there's only one way to help erase such an experience. And that of course is take a short rest and then go back down again. Jyoti Asundi (25:46) Go back on. It's that same thing. Get back on that bike. Yeah, that we say. Aarati Asundi (25:48) Yeah. Get back on the horse. Jyoti Asundi (25:51) Do it again. Mm-hmm. Aarati Asundi (25:52) Yeah, and she did. And over her lifetime, she completed countless more dives like this. So she just got over it pretty quickly. In 1947, Genie and Jideo, her husband, called it quits. And I think that's because they were just never together long enough to make their marriage work Jyoti Asundi (26:12) Yeah I was almost reminded when you told me the guy was a pilot, I was reminded of Fiddler on the Roof, where the father is saying that his daughter can, I think it's his third daughter who is not allowed to marry the soldier. And he says exactly this. He says, fish can fall in love with a bird. But where would they live? That was what he had said. Aarati Asundi (26:34) Yes. Yeah. That's so good. Yeah. That's exactly what happened. She's a fish and he's a bird. Jyoti Asundi (26:40) Yes, and he's a pilot and she's a marine biologist, but where would they live? Aarati Asundi (26:46) Yes. That's exactly what happened. Their like marriage just kind of fell apart because she's a fish and he's a bird. Yeah. Jyoti Asundi (26:52) Yes, and he's a bird. Yeah, Aarati Asundi (26:55) Yeah, so their marriage didn't work. That same year though, the US Fish and Wildlife Service was looking for an oceanographic chemist who was familiar with working with fish. And Genie was like, hey, I'm actually perfect for this job because she had worked as a chemist at the Celenese Corporation. Jyoti Asundi (27:13) Yes. Correct. It's coming together. All her little experiences are coming together. Aarati Asundi (27:19) perfect. And she was initially hired, but then several people raised concerns about her being a woman, And she was the only woman on the team. Jyoti Asundi (27:30) Okay. Aarati Asundi (27:31) So mysteriously, she's like on her way to the Philippines for this job and to get to the Philippines, she stops over in Hawaii and she gets stuck there. And she's told that her passport is delayed for some reason. She never figured it out why or what happened. So she's basically stranded in Hawaii. Jyoti Asundi (27:51) I see. Aarati Asundi (27:51) And meanwhile, the US Fish and Wildlife Service, lucky for them, get to hire a man in her place. Jyoti Asundi (27:58) These are really hard stories and we can rail against this sexism. We can rail against this kind of behavior. Aarati Asundi (28:07) But you know what I think was so inspiring was her attitude towards all of this. She was like, okay, you know what though, Hawaii is an awesome place to get stranded in, especially... Jyoti Asundi (28:16) I was actually going to say the same thing. I was going to say, if I have to be stranded somewhere in this kind of a very, very unfair situation, say this is a gift. This is the most beautiful place on earth. Thank you. I will live here in Hawaii and conduct my research here. Aarati Asundi (28:34) Yeah. Yeah. And you're not even obsessed with fish like she is. And so Hawaii is like... Jyoti Asundi (28:40) the absolute paradise for a fish lover. Aarati Asundi (28:42) Yeah. And so that's what she does. She's just like, okay, great. So I'm in Hawaii, I'm going to study fish. And she starts spending her time at the Waikiki aquarium and is given access to their little laboratory in the back to dissect and study fish. And so she spent a few weeks there before she ultimately had to return to New York. Back in New York, she received an offer from Professor Myron Gordon to work in his lab at the American Museum of Natural History. And also offered to sponsor her PhD studies at New York University at the same time. Jyoti Asundi (29:16) Oh! New York University is really good to her. Her master's professor recognizes her and tells her, I will sponsor you for a master's. And now they are... Aarati Asundi (29:24) Mm-hmm. And now PhD. Jyoti Asundi (29:27) PhD. it's New York University right there. Columbia is right there. It's all in that same small realm. But there's a disparity in the way they approach a woman and her talent. Aarati Asundi (29:41) She said that this was a somewhat unique opportunity given she was a woman, but also unlike most men her age, she was completely a free agent. She had no financial or family obligations. Her mom was really supportive of her going off and adventuring everywhere. Her mom actually ended up marrying the owner of that Japanese restaurant where they used to go every Saturday. Jyoti Asundi (30:05) Where they used go. The Fuji restaurant! Aarati Asundi (30:07) Yeah, yeah, the little Fuji restaurant. So she's very supportive of Genie just going off and doing whatever she needs to do. Jyoti Asundi (30:14) whatever she needed to do to pursue her passion. Yes. Aarati Asundi (30:18) Yes. So for her PhD thesis, I thought this was interesting. She studied how two types of fish, the platy and the sword tail, which are both aquarium fish and are very closely genetically related, Aarati Asundi (30:33) they became at some point sexually isolated in nature. So these two fish in nature do not cross breed. But in aquariums, they do. You can get hybrids. But interestingly, only the hybrid strains of fish develop cancer. And that cancer produces tumors that are very similar to human tumors. Jyoti Asundi (31:01) ⁓ my goodness. Aarati Asundi (30:01) So it's almost like these fish in the wild know that if they try to mate with each other, bad things will happen. And if they're kind of forced to by proximity or whatever, by the change of environment, if they're made to mate with each other in aquariums, then cancer arises. Jyoti Asundi (31:19) Interesting. Yeah. Aarati Asundi (31:19) So it's very interesting. And so they were kind of trying to figure out like, how did the swordfish and the platies in nature become sexually isolated? Like how come they don't mate with each other? How do they know not to do that? Jyoti Asundi (31:33) Not to do... not to crossbreed, yeah. Aarati Asundi (31:36) And so that's kind of what Genie was studying. She was studying the courtship behavior of how the two fish varied, when exactly mating occurred and how fertilization occurred of the female's eggs. And in addition to courtship differences, she also found that if the female of a certain species was inseminated with sperm from both species of fish, the species of sperm that was the same as the female was more likely to fertilize the egg. So it had like a competitive advantage. Jyoti Asundi (32:10) Yes, competitive edge. Okay. Aarati Asundi (32:12) Yes. And during this research, she became the first scientist to make test tube fish babies by artificially inseminating a female fish. Yeah. Jyoti Asundi (32:22) She is an amazing lady. Aarati Asundi (32:24) She also, like while she's doing her PhD work, she also did some work in the West Indies studying the behaviors of filefish, which apparently stand on their heads to show dominance. So thought that was... Jyoti Asundi (32:37) I have a feeling I've seen these in an aquarium somewhere, fish standing on their head. I have a feeling I've seen this. Aarati Asundi (32:46) I felt like that too. I felt like that dinged little bell in my head also. Jyoti Asundi (32:48) Yeah, that dings a little bell in my head. But I didn't realize it was to show dominance. Interesting way to show... Well, I much rather have, I assume those are males showing dominance. Aarati Asundi (33:01) Yes, yes, yes, two males. Jyoti Asundi (33:02) Yes. I much rather that a male show dominance by standing on his head, which is actually good for his brain, Aarati Asundi (33:10) Yes. Yeah. Like get all the blood flow down there. Jyoti Asundi (33:10) rather than showing dominance by pulling out the sword and bashing the other male. Good for the whole species. We have a lot to learn as humans. Aarati Asundi (33:20) Yes, we do. She also studied these small fish called gobies, studying their visual learning patterns. So like the fish's eyes are on either side of its head, unlike humans who have two eyes straight in front. So she was trying to figure out like if they saw something with their left eye and then you covered it could they remember that that it was there things like that ⁓ Jyoti Asundi (33:45) Yes, Aarati Asundi (33:46) So we're not really going to get into that now. She just knows so much about every type of fish. It's just incredible. Reading her book, she just went on these little like tangents here and there. It's just like, you know what's really interesting about fish eyes and you know what's really interesting about this one's fin and you know what's really interesting about this one's teeth and I'm like, my God, you know everything like, Jyoti Asundi (34:08) But you know, this is what happens when you are allowed full freedom to follow your true purpose in life. Each one is born with an inner calling. And if you're able to be quiet enough to be able to listen to that inner voice of yours and then follow that inner calling with complete freedom, this is the kind of genius that emerges. This is the kind knowledge that is gathered that can change humanity Aarati Asundi (34:39) Yeah, can you imagine if everybody just followed their heart and did exactly what they wanted? In terms of research and studying and following their passions? Jyoti Asundi (34:47) Yeah. And it's, you know, I am not going to think about the money. I'm not going to think about who likes me, who doesn't like me. Is this acceptable? Is this not acceptable? I will follow my inner voice. I'm going to go after what my heart tells me to do. And if you have that kind of freedom to be able to do that, not everybody has that freedom. So but if you if you do have that, what a transformative world this would be. Aarati Asundi (35:12) Yeah, totally, totally agree. And that's what her entire story is. She's just chasing fish everywhere around the world. Jyoti Asundi (35:16) Beautiful, beautiful. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Aarati Asundi (35:25) Hey Mom! Did you know that Galactic Polymath Education Studio is holding the first ever MySciJourney competition? Jyoti Asundi (35:32) Yes! It's so exciting! I heard you could win up to $500 for sharing your science story. Aarati Asundi (35:39) Yep! Just make a short video describing your scientific career path and the importance of your research and upload it for your chance to win. Jyoti Asundi (35:47) Eligible videos will also become part of an online resource to show the public a glimpse of the real people and work done in science. Aarati Asundi (35:55) The MySciJourney competition is open to everyone from highschoolers to tenured college professors and is a great way to flex your science storytelling muscles. Jyoti Asundi (36:04) Upload your submissions by September 30, 2025. For more competition rules and resources, including beautiful slide templates to help you get started, visit galacticpolymath.com. G-A-L-A-C-T-I-C-P-O-L-Y-M-A-T-H.com. Aarati Asundi (36:23) That's galacticpolymath.com Aarati Asundi & Jyoti Asundi (36:25) We can’t wait to hear your stories! __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Aarati Asundi (37:28) Hi everyone, Aarati here. I hope you're enjoying the podcast. If so, and you wish someone would tell your science story, I founded a science communications company called Sykom, that's S-Y-K-O-M, that can help. Sykom blends creativity with scientific accuracy to create all types of science, communications, content, including explainer videos, slide presentations, science, writing, and more. We work with academic researchers, tech companies, nonprofits, or really any scientists. To help simplify your science, check us out at sykommer.com. That's S-Y-K-O-M-M-E r.com. Back to the story. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Aarati Asundi (37:14) So in 1949, Genie learned of a program called Scientific Investigations in Micronesia, which was being sponsored by the Office of Naval Research. And they wanted to learn more about the Pacific Islands that made the U.S. Trust Territory after the Pacific War. Jyoti Asundi (37:32) Okay. Aarati Asundi (37:33) So Genie applied, and she was specifically chosen to go on the trip to study poisonous fish in the area. Her final destination was the Palau Islands, but once again, she was held up for a couple of weeks because one of the coordinators who was in charge of housing for the program hadn't realized that E. Clark was a woman. And so she couldn't be housed at the same bachelor's office quarters that all the other scientists and naval officers were being kept at. So they were like... Jyoti Asundi (38:04) Yes. Aarati Asundi (38:05) ... "Oh no, we don't have housing for a woman. What do we do?" And so she had to wait a bit in Guam until alternate arrangements were made. Jyoti Asundi (38:15) But she did get to her destination and everything? Aarati Asundi (38:18) She did. Yes, she did. Jyoti Asundi (38:20) So this was just an experience differed. It was not an experience denied. Aarati Asundi (38:25) Yeah, but again, deferred because she was a woman and they had no accommodations for her woman. Jyoti Asundi (38:28) Yeah, but it's a step better. Both things happened because she was a woman, but in one case she was completely denied and blocked out. In this case, it was only deferred. And they made accommodations once they realized that they hadn't quite understood the situation completely. All right. Aarati Asundi (38:45) Yes, yes. So she gets stuck in Guam for a couple weeks, but again, she just takes it in stride and she's like, great, I'll explore Guam and I'll collect fish from tide pools and, you know, kind of explore some of the poisonous fish in this area. When she finally did make to the Palau Islands, she immersed herself in their culture and made friends with the local fishermen who would show her the best practices of where to find all kinds of fish. She hired a local man with a motorboat named Niraibui and a fisherman named Sai Kong who showed how to use a net to capture fish and use a hand spear underwater. And again, she just went into so many stories about this in her book, just story after story about their adventures chasing after fish, her and Saikong and Niraibui just going out and then this happened and they found a trigger fish. Jyoti Asundi (39:46) Oh wow. Aarati Asundi (39:47) And Saikong showed her how to extract it from its hiding place and then they saw this giant clam that could have swallowed them all whole like, you know, they wrote on the back of a sea turtle. Yeah. Jyoti Asundi (39:58) She lived a magical life and it's almost She's helping to share the magic with you. Aarati Asundi (40:06) Yeah, just story after story about this. And then she's like, also visiting a few of the neighboring islands and, you know, living with the natives in their home, eating their traditional foods, learning about their culture. And of course, learning about all the kinds of fish. Jyoti Asundi (40:23) You know what It tells me that she has a deep for not just the fish but for cultures and all human beings. Because she's so open and she's able to accept all these experiences, all these people, she's able to learn from everybody, everybody becomes her guru. Everybody becomes her teacher. If you are somebody with a bit of prejudice, you might that a person with a graduate degree from New York in USA. Aarati Asundi (40:55) Mm-hmm. Jyoti Asundi (40:56) What would they have to learn from this lowly boatman, lowly fisherman in Palau Island. But she was very open, therefore received so much wisdom Aarati Asundi (41:06) And that's exactly what she said actually in her book. She said, quote, "You may not receive a warm response if you ask a rich friend to help you obtain money, but ask a strange fisherman to help you find a specific fish, (the harder and rarer the better) and you will immediately get his interest and eventually his wholehearted help. You do not have to know his language, just draw a picture of the fish, gesticulate for his help, and let him lead the way. In doing so, you have told him three important things. You have not come just to stare at him and his people. You have a specific interest in common with his. You respect his judgment and recognize his superior knowledge of local conditions, and you trust him." Jyoti Asundi (41:52) Such deep wisdom. That's the way people should treat each other. Aarati Asundi (41:57) Yes, come in with this attitude that you know everything you'll learn so much. Jyoti Asundi (42:03) Yes, it takes a really smart person to understand how little they know. Aarati Asundi (42:09) And she definitely was like, I know that I'm not the expert here. You're the one who knows about these fish. So I would like to learn that from you, please. And they're very willing to be like, hey, this lady wants to know this fish. Oh my gosh, I'm gonna go show her my favorite fish, you know? Jyoti Asundi (42:27) Beautiful. Beautiful, Aarati Asundi (42:29) In 1950, Genie graduated with her PhD, and she also got married to her second husband, Ilias Papakonstantinou, who was an orthopedic surgeon. Jyoti Asundi (42:41) Oh wow okay. Aarati Asundi (42:43) Yeah. They were both very supportive of each other's careers. She wrote, quote, "There were evenings when I was pressed for time when our date, quote unquote, consisted of translating a German ichthyological article or my calling out numbers to him and him running a calculating machine while we figured the data on my experimental work. And so I couldn't complain on other evenings when I spent the whole time waiting in the lobby of St. Clare's hospital." end quote. Yeah. Jyoti Asundi (43:13) Yes. Oh that is nice. I can see they cared so much about each other. That's nice. Aarati Asundi (43:21) Yeah, like they're trying to go on a date, but it's like, my God, I have this deadline or my God, I have this surgery I have to complete. And it's like, okay, yeah, go for it. Yeah. Jyoti Asundi (43:29) Yes. Okay. All right. Yes. Aarati Asundi (43:44) And so Ilias was very excited for Genie when she won a Fulbright Scholarship to study fish living in the Red Sea because she would be staying in Egypt. And his family was right across the Mediterranean Sea in Athens. He's Greek. And in fact, while she was in Egypt, Ilias came and visited her and they went to Athens and they got married there. Jyoti Asundi (43:54) Nice. Aarati Asundi (43:55) And they spent their honeymoon at the Red Sea studying fish together. Of course. Jyoti Asundi (44:04) This reminds me of a previous episode of yours where ⁓ Lister and his wife went on their honeymoon. They went to the various hospitals to learn about surgery techniques. Aarati Asundi (44:12) Yes, to learn about all their practices. Jyoti Asundi (44:16) All the various techniques of various medical practices. Okay! Aarati Asundi (44:19) Yes. So the Red Sea actually becomes a big part of her life. It's a very unique environment and can almost be classified maybe as one of those extreme environments that we were talking about in our last episode. Jyoti Asundi (44:30) Yeah, yeah, I agree. Yes, yes. Aarati Asundi (44:34) The surface waters can get as hot as 30 degrees Celsius or 86 degrees Fahrenheit, which is one of the warmest marine habitats. And this high temperature also leads to high amounts of evaporation, which concentrates the salt in the sea. So the Red Sea is also one of the saltiest seas. Jyoti Asundi (44:54) Yes. Aarati Asundi (44:55) marine life has to be extremely resilient and have adapted to this environment. And so again, she's just like in the Red Sea having a blast studying all types of clownfish, scorpionfish, pipefish, pufferfish, parrotfish, sea slugs, snails, crabs, like everything. And while she's there, she discovered three new species of fish, one which she called the Moses sole. Jyoti Asundi (45:23) Okay. Aarati Asundi (45:24) Sole as an S-O-L-E, The Moses sole is a flatfish that spends most of its time buried in the sand with just its eyes and nose peeking out. And when it's attacked, it secretes something called pardaxin, which is an irritant to sensitive tissues like fish gills. And it's so strong that even sharks are repelled by it. Jyoti Asundi (45:50) Whoa. Aarati Asundi (45:51) Yeah. So don't mess with this fish. So although people did try to experiment with pardaxin and try to use it to protect human divers from sharks, scientists couldn't really make it work for us. But Genie would have argued that that wasn't even really necessary. Like, humans don't need to be protected from sharks. Because she, of course, in the Red Sea, spent so much time studying sharks as well. Jyoti Asundi (46:17) So while she's studying all these fish, she's also studying sharks in the Red Sea. Aarati Asundi (46:22) Yeah. Yeah, because she's just diving and she's just encountering them. And at first, I think she and Ilias are both doing this and Ilias, of course, also becomes fascinated by sharks. And the first couple of times they're like, my God, it's a shark, you know, like, but then they start to realize that the sharks aren't really bothering them. The sharks don't care about them. And so they start to become more and more comfortable Jyoti Asundi (46:46) Yes. Aarati Asundi (46:46) And Genie comes to realize that sharks are really given a bad rap by movies and media. And she's like, they're actually very smart and intelligent. And they don't go around attacking people willy nilly. It's portrayed in movies and books and stuff. ⁓ Jyoti Asundi (47:05) Yeah, you know, this kind of fear of sharks that highly prevalent everywhere. Fear and hate are two sides of the same coin and the root cause is ignorance. The less you know about something, the more prejudice you have against it, the more hatred you have against it, the more fear you have of it. But the more you understand, the more you learn, the more respect you have for whatever it is, for example, sharks in this case. And the more respect you have, the more love you have, and the more you understand that, hey, I'm learning a lot actually from these mighty creatures, these beautiful creatures. Aarati Asundi (47:47) Yeah, I think that's exactly what she realized. That people just didn't know about sharks. And so that is probably in part what inspired her to write first autobiography, Lady with a Spear, which is where I got all the information so far where she talked about all her adventures up to this point in her career. Jyoti Asundi (48:07) Yes. Yes. Aarati Asundi (48:09) So Lady with the Spear was published in 1953 and it quickly became a bestseller. It was translated into several languages, including Braille, and thrust Genie into the spotlight as a rising marine biologist who was of particular note because she was young and a pretty woman who was not afraid of sharks. What a combination. Jyoti Asundi (48:29) Yes, that unicorn. Yes. Aarati Asundi (48:31) Yes. With the success of the book, Genie realized that she had a talent for communication and decided that it should become her life's work to educate people about ocean life and especially sharks, which people really didn't know much about at the time. Like I was saying, people just kind of thought they were these mindless killer eating machines and not very smart, but very dangerous. And she was like, that couldn't be further from the truth, actually. Jyoti Asundi (49:00) Yes, That is so beautiful. Aarati Asundi (49:02) The book also drew the attention of two philanthropists, William and Anne Vanderbilt, as in Vanderbilt University. Jyoti Asundi (49:10) Hmm the Vanderbilt saw it. Okay. Aarati Asundi (49:11) They sure did. And they funded the construction of a research station in Florida called the Cape Haze Marine Laboratory, which today has been renamed the Mote Marine Laboratory and Aquarium. The Cape Haze Marine Lab opened its doors in 1955 with Genie, at the ripe age of 33, as its founder and executive director, with a mission of quote, "acquisition and maintenance of sharks for visiting scientists and research on sharks." Jyoti Asundi (49:49) Oh my God. Oh fantastic! Look what happens when the Vanderbilts recognize your work. Aarati Asundi (49:56) Yes. we need to support this one, this rising star. Jyoti Asundi (49:53) Yes, absolutely. This is the kind work that needs to be supported. Absolutely. Aarati Asundi (49:58) So to help her acquire the sharks for this laboratory, Genie again worked with a local fisherman named Beryl Chadwick, who was pretty experienced at catching sharks on baited hooks. Over time, the reputation of the research lab grew, with Genie doing a ton of outreach programs and giving lectures to the and at nearby universities and soon this is when she earns the nickname the shark lady. Although weirdly, she got that nickname before she really even started doing research or experiments on sharks. That research is ultimately what she becomes known for, but she got the nickname preemptively almost. Jyoti Asundi (50:41) I think she was headed in that direction and people could see that. Aarati Asundi (50:45) Yes. Yeah, and I think like you said, people just didn't know enough about them. And so they really just thought like sharks aren't very smart. They're really dangerous, but they're just like these mindless killing machines. And so she became the first scientist to show how smart sharks really are because she was able to train them to press targets to get food and show that they had the ability to learn different colors and shapes. Jyoti Asundi (51:12) Oh wow! Aarati Asundi (51:13) She's also credited with discovering that some sharks don't need to swim in order to breathe. Instead, certain sharks, like nurse sharks that hang out on the seafloor, use a method called buccal pumping, which is where they use the muscles in their mouth and cheeks to push water over their gills so that they can breathe without moving. Jyoti Asundi (51:35) Wow, that's... Aarati Asundi (51:36) So not all sharks can do this, but some fish and some sharks can do it. Jyoti Asundi (51:40) Such detail and such... and recognizing the diversity of the various mechanisms, that is fantastic. Aarati Asundi (51:47) Yeah. She famously taught the crown prince of Japan, Akihito, how to snorkel and was gifted a trained nurse shark by him. Jyoti Asundi (51:58) This lady is trading major things for anything connected to fish. Right in her childhood snake, she was willing to get into communion. Aarati Asundi (52:08) She's willing to be baptized. Yeah Jyoti Asundi (52:09) she's... Sorry, yeah, I got my things wrong because I don't know enough. But now she's got the crown prince of Japan and he is like "Please give me... please give me... what, what is it? she's getting...? Aarati Asundi (52:25) Snorkeling lessons. Yeah, I'll give you snorkeling lessons and you'll get a trained nurse shark in return. Jyoti Asundi (52:32) She's...Yeah, please give me a trained nurse shark. People would be like Yeah, give me a million dollars. Give me a mansion in in New York. No, no, give me a trained nurse shark That's what I'd like. Aarati Asundi (52:42) And for her, that was probably a win-win. She's like, yes, Jyoti Asundi (52:46) Absolutely! Aarati Asundi (52:46) I get to teach someone how to snorkel. This is great. Jyoti Asundi (52:47) Yes, that's great. Aarati Asundi (52:48) And also I get a shark. Amazing. Yeah, win-win. Jyoti Asundi (52:50) I get a shark out of it. A trained one too. Aarati Asundi (52:53) There's no downside. Jyoti Asundi (52:55) Her calling is so strong. It's shining bright in her. Aarati Asundi (53:00) Yes, very, very much so. Jyoti Asundi (53:01) It's lighting up the entire world. Aarati Asundi (53:04) Yes. And she even rode on the back of a 40-foot whale shark on a trip to California. Jyoti Asundi (53:11) Oh my goodness, oh my goodness. Aarati Asundi (53:15) However, while her career was growing, her personal life was taking a hit. So she and Ilias had four children together, but I found one source that said that she felt that Ilias was becoming too obsessed with the money and fame that was kind of coming their way. And so in 1967, they got a divorce and she left the Cape Haze Laboratory for a faculty position at the City University of New York. In New York, she met and married her third husband, a writer named Chandler Brossard, but they too fell apart very quickly, divorcing less than two years later. Shortly after that, she accepted a teaching position at the University of Maryland. And so she and her family moved to Bethesda. And here in 1970, she met her fourth husband, Igor Klatzo, who was chief of the Laboratory of Neuropathy at the NIH. However, this marriage didn't even last a year. So.. Jyoti Asundi (54:14) Okay. It is one of those things that maybe where if the woman is so very strong and so very bright and absolutely passionate about her work, then it's not easy to find someone who basically be in second position in her life. Aarati Asundi (54:32) Yeah, I can totally see that because I can see how she's such a vivacious and interesting and energetic person and so people are drawn to her. Jyoti Asundi (54:42) Yeah. She can captivate anybody. Aarati Asundi (54:45) And these guys marry her, but then they don't realize she's not gonna change that behavior. Like what initially drew them to her is the fact that she's going off to the Red Sea every year and going off to Hawaii and like, I heard about this whale shark in the Pacific Ocean, I need to go there and see it. And she's running off and they're like, "wait!" Jyoti Asundi (55:07) The very thing that attracted her... was attractive about her is now becoming a barrier to deepening the relationship because rather than the entire vast kaleidoscope of marine beings, Why would you take something which is so much bigger and you're in love with it and then narrow your vision back down to person, no matter how wonderful. And many people will not be able to accept that, their egos may take a hit. So maybe that's where things were going wrong. Aarati Asundi (55:41) Yeah. So despite her tumultuous personal life, her career remained very strong throughout all of this. In 1969, she published her second autobiography, The Lady and the Sharks. In 1975, the movie Jaws came out. And so she had to work even harder now to convince people that sharks aren't mindless killing machines. Jyoti Asundi (56:10) Yes! Oh that is so sad! Aarati Asundi (56:12) Yeah. And I think it had a profound impact on her career as well, because anytime now people are talking about sharks and they're looking around for a shark expert, like she's the one to call, you know. So she's doing a lot of like media appearances writing articles and all this kind of stuff. did a documentary for National Geographic in 1982, where she said, quote, "People come to me and say, what will I do if I go in the water and see a shark? You don't have to do anything. The chances of that shark attacking you in any way is so remote. The sea should be enjoyed and the animals in it. When you see a shark underwater, you should say, how lucky I am to see this beautiful creature his environment." end quote. Jyoti Asundi (56:56) Oh beautiful, and also that... it's interesting, a very uninteresting creature to that shark. Don't think it has its laser focus on you. Your ego may think you're wonderful, but the shark couldn't care less about you. It's minding its own business, so please, you do the same. Aarati Asundi (57:17) You do the same. Yeah. Jyoti Asundi (57:19) But respect that and give thanks that you are able to watch its beauty in the way it was intended to be. Aarati Asundi (57:26) And I think the most important piece of advice is like, don't freak you know. If anything's gonna draw that shark's attention to you, it's you freaking out. Jyoti Asundi (57:34) Yeah, if you freak out, you're going to thrash around. And that's going to be like, wait, what the heck? And the shark is now going to look at you and say " Whatever that is thrashing around is probably a problem." Aarati Asundi (57:47) Yeah. it's dying anyway. It's probably dying anyway. I might as well eat it and put it out of its misery. ⁓ Jyoti Asundi (57:51) Yeah, and put it out of its misery or it might hurt my kids. So I won't do that. Aarati Asundi (57:55) Yeah, so just be calm, relax, enjoy the beautiful creature that you see before you. Jyoti Asundi (58:01) Yeah. Aarati Asundi (58:02) She remained at the University of Maryland until she retired. During that time, she continues to go on dives around the world. She taught others how to dive and became a very strong advocate for ocean conservation. She made repeated trips back to the Red Sea where she discovered another new species of fish that she named Trichonotus nikii after her youngest son, Nikolas. One of her favorite places to dive was just off the coast of the Sinai Penninsula in Egypt because of its gorgeous coral reef. And she was actually instrumental in convincing the Egyptian parliament to make that area an underwater national park and the first Egyptian national park in general. yeah. Jyoti Asundi (58:47) Oh Fantastic! ⁓ that is a huge win! If you can convert a coral reef into a national park, that allows for its protection for future generations. That is what a legacy! This reminds me that Lady Beatrix Potter who bought large tracts of land... Aarati Asundi (59:07) That's the author of Peter Rabbit? Jyoti Asundi (59:11) Yes, that's right. Yes. She took all that money and she converted large areas, beautiful areas of Great Britain into national parks. Oh this is fantastic. We owe so much to these people Aarati Asundi (59:24) Yes, we really do. Jyoti Asundi (59:25) That these things are preserved for us. Aarati Asundi (59:28) Speaking of children's books, she also helped write a children's book called The Desert Beneath the Sea to introduce kids to the strange and wonderful animals that live on the sandy floor in shallow parts of the ocean. Jyoti Asundi (59:42) Oh wow. Aarati Asundi (59:43) Even after she retired, she continued to teach one class per semester. She contributed to magazines like National Geographic and continued to dive. She even got married one more time in 1997 to her fifth husband, Henry Yoshinobu Kon, who was a longtime friend of hers. However, their marriage ended when he sadly took his own life in 2000. Jyoti Asundi (1:00:08) Oh I'm so... horrible. That, that is... Oh she didn't deserve that. Aarati Asundi (1:00:13) Very sad. Jyoti Asundi (1:00:14) Oh that's horrible. Aarati Asundi (1:00:15) Over her lifetime, Genie made countless dives and over 70 dives in a submersible. So she did get to go in the bathyscaphe type thing that her hero William Beebe did. And in these submersibles, she was able to reach a depth of 12,000 feet in some cases. So went really deep. Jyoti Asundi (1:00:36) Yes. Aarati Asundi (1:00:37) Her last dive was at the age of 92. Jyoti Asundi (1:00:44) Oh wonderful. Oh goodness. Wonderful life. What a wonderful life. Aarati Asundi (1:00:48) Just a few months later on February 25, 2015, Genie passed away from lung cancer. At the time of her death, she still had some research that was undergoing review and waiting for publication. So worked until the very, very end. Yes. Jyoti Asundi (1:01:06) wow! ⁓ Worked until she dropped. That is truly, truly inspiring. That is true passion. Aarati Asundi (1:01:13) And actually, she had this quote that I think you would really like. I think several years before she died, she said in an interview, quote, "I figured if I'm in a wheelchair, they can wheel me to the end of the boat and put a tack on my back and dump me over the side of the boat. And I can go down to the bottom and study these fishies as long as I want." Yeah. Jyoti Asundi (1:01:35) She won't give up her passion. ⁓ truly remarkable. Aarati Asundi (1:01:40) So in addition to her two memoirs and the children's book, Genie wrote over 175 scientific articles during her life. She led over 200 field research expeditions all over the world. She's been inducted into multiple women's halls of fame, including the Women's Divers Hall of Fame. Plus she received many other medals and awards for her work in marine biology and conservation. On May 4th, 2022, on what would have been her 100th birthday, the US Postal Service released a new stamp honoring her. Jyoti Asundi (1:02:17) Nice, yes. Aarati Asundi (1:02:19) However, I really like to think that the legacy that she would have been most excited and proud about is that she has not one, not two, but at least four species of fish named after her, including one species of dogfish shark. Jyoti Asundi (1:02:37) Oh Dog fish. Lovely. Aarati Asundi (1:02:38) The dogfish shark. Yes. Jyoti Asundi (1:02:40) Lovely. Aarati Asundi (1:02:41) Yes. So the story of Eugenie Clark, the shark lady. Jyoti Asundi (1:02:47) Truly remarkable. That is beautiful. I love it. She changed the face of marine biology. She changed the face of sharks. Aarati Asundi (1:02:56) Yeah. And I know I keep saying this, but like, seriously, her books are like, I can see why they became bestsellers because she just takes you on all these adventures with her. And it really feels like you're island hopping with her. You're going down into the sea with her. You know, she really does such a marvelous job of painting that picture and... Jyoti Asundi (1:03:19) She can paint a picture with words. Yeah. Aarati Asundi (1:03:21) Yeah. And you feel like you're going on those adventures with her all around the world. Jyoti Asundi (1:03:25) She is truly inspiring. I love it. You've made me want to go and read these books that she has written, her autobiographical books. Aarati Asundi (1:03:34) I want to go sit in an aquarium and read her books. Like, you know, sit in that ambiance surrounded by all these fish swimming around me and just like pretend that I'm also underwater with her. Jyoti Asundi (1:03:46) Yeah, watch those file fish stand on their heads. Aarati Asundi (1:03:49) Yeah, yeah. Watch a hammerhead shark swim over you while you're reading about it. Yes. Jyoti Asundi (1:03:53) Yeah, that's right, that's right. Yeah, it's so easy to fear what you don't understand and she's showing you. Break those barriers, understand each other, gain knowledge, gain wisdom, live in peace. Aarati Asundi (1:04:11) Thanks for listening. If you have a suggestion for a story we should cover or thoughts you want to share about an episode, reach out to us at smartteapodcast.com. You can follow us on Instagram, TikTok, and Blue Sky @smartteapodcast and listen to us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. And leave us a rating or comment. It helps us grow. New episodes are released every other Wednesday. See you next time.