Episode Transcript Aarati: 0:10 Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Smart Tea Podcast, where we talk about the lives of scientists and innovators who shape the world. How are you, Arpita? Arpita: 0:19 I am doing better now. Aarati and I just spent 30 minutes trying to figure out some really dumb tech issues. Uh, we've had some issues with my mic for a few sessions now, and I just went down a Reddit rabbit hole trying to see what the problem was. It was like, not really Google able. For some reason, my computer doesn't recognize my mic. And then I just had this thought where I was like, I wonder if I just switch the cord. Like, I just used a different USB cord from the back of my drawer. Aarati: 0:53 The brand new cord that came with the microphone should work. And we, are assuming that it's brand new, so it should be working, but why not switch that out and see how it goes? Arpita: 1:05 Yeah. I just, I don't know why I just had this like random thought and I was like, I like, I tried all the other variables and I was like, maybe I'll just switch the actual cord out from something random in the back of my desk drawer. And it now seems to be working. And then. You said, this is where you quit experimental biology? Aarati: 1:25 Yes, this is literally what made me so frustrated because I remember for, like, I was, I was doing this experiment. I was trying to replicate standard results that were seen in my field. Like every paper was like, this is, this is like our baseline. And so I was trying to replicate that baseline that's in multiple papers. And I couldn't figure out why I wasn't. You know, getting it and it was so frustrating. I was changing everything. I was changing like the strain of worms that I was using. I was changing the type of food that they were eating. I was changing, like, you know, I was getting, uh, worms from other labs, like maybe their worms will work. I was doing all sorts of things. People were saying, put paper towels inside, like the bin, because maybe they're like dry and they need the humidity or something. And then it turned out that the incubator that they were in was two degrees off. So instead of being at 20 degrees, they were actually like at 22 degrees Celsius. And... Arpita: 2:30 And then they just killed them? Aarati: 2:31 It just like, it was too hot for them apparently. And they weren't dying, but they were just like not behaving the way that I thought they should behave. And then, so I changed the incubator so that the readout on the incubator actually said 18 degrees. But then when I stuck a like external thermometer in there, It read 20 degrees and everything was perfect. Everything was beautiful. And I'm like, it literally took me six months to figure that. And I was so fuming mad and everyone around me was just like, Oh, well, aren't you glad that you figured it out? You must feel so like accomplished. And I'm like, six months, Arpita: 3:09 I doesn't feel like an accomplishment at all. It actually so defeating. It Aarati: 3:13 Yeah. And they were like, well, that's how biology is. And I'm like, in that case, I'm not sure I want to do this. Arpita: 3:23 I, it's like, I don't think that made me feel good either though. I think it, like, it's not that it makes you feel dumb necessarily, because it's, you did. You know, work really hard to figure out the solution, but when the solution is that mundane it just makes you question sanity. Aarati: 3:41 Why would I not trust the readout that's on, on the actual machine, like on the actual incubator, it's saying 20 degrees Celsius and I believe it. I'm like, thinking there must be something wrong with my worms. My worms are crazy because they're not behaving, they're like, I'm the crazy one, I'm, I'm treating them badly and that's why they're not behaving. I'm doing something, you know, I'm not feeding them the right food or I'm not, Oh, it's so frustrating, but yeah, Arpita: 4:08 how many variables can you possibly go through? You know, like, you think about too hard, there's everything's a variable. Aarati: 4:14 Yeah, and people, like, we couldn't wear perfumes, and I think I mentioned this, like, in one of our first episodes, I couldn't wear perfumes or strong smelling soaps because we were afraid it would mess with the worms, like, sensory systems and things like that, and Arpita: 4:30 Like, do I change my shampoo now? Like, what am I? Aarati: 4:32 like Did somebody walk by here with perfume Like, yeah. So it was, it, this, this situation of just change out the new brand new wire that came with your microphone. Change that for the ratty one that you probably had in the back of your Arpita: 4:47 Literally ratty. Aarati: 4:48 Yeah. Oh, guess what? I was in San Francisco just this past weekend, for Outside Lands. So I Arpita: 4:55 Oh, fun. Aarati: 4:56 neck of the woods, yeah, it Arpita: 4:58 How was it? Aarati: 4:59 It was, it was fun. Like, I couldn't go to, I didn't go to a lot of the shows because I was with my friends and they have this really small baby. So everything was like predicated on the baby's mood, you know, like, Arpita: 5:12 Taking a baby to outside land seems ambitious, so Aarati: 5:15 I know, right. But he had these like cute. Bright blue headphones that he was wearing so like like noise cancelling headphones so that it didn't get too loud for him But it was like super adorable. He loves to dance. So like when he was in a good mood He's like this pumping to the music. It was really great. Arpita: 5:33 really cute. That sounds very fun. Um, it was very cold. Did you go all three days? Aarati: 5:39 No, we just went on Saturday and just like in the afternoon for a bit. Yeah, but I always forget how cold San Francisco is. Like, after I left and I moved down south of San Francisco, every time I go back to that area, I'm like, oh, yeah, it's perpetually foggy. It's perpetually cold. Arpita: 5:59 Especially this time of year too, like the summer months is like very, very foggy. Andit's, it's Yeah, last weekend in particular, I feel like was particularly cold, so I'm glad you had fun. Aarati: 6:10 Yeah, it was. It was a lot of fun. And we were dancing. So that kept us warm, too. But, Anyway, little, Arpita: 6:17 so fun. Aarati: 6:18 little side note, but your story happens in San Francisco? Arpita: 6:22 Yes, it happens in San Francisco. Um, and it happens in the Bay area. So I think it'll be kind of fun to talk about some of these places that are familiar to us. Aarati: 6:31 Yeah. Arpita: 6:32 So our story today is about Alexander, he went by"Sasha", Shulgin. Um, and this is another episode in my series about psychedelics Aarati: 6:45 Oh, fun. Arpita: 6:46 So Alexander"Sasha" Shulgin is known as the godfather of MDMA. And the reason that I chose this episode is that just this week, the FDA was debating whether or not to approve a new drug application from a pharmaceutical company to decide whether MDMA would be allowed to be used therapeutically for people with This is the first time that something like this has happened for a psychedelic and a new drug application for people who don't know is a really big deal. It means the company, the pharmaceutical company that has taken time to develop this molecule has undergone a ton of safety studies and early stage clinical trials to prove that this is safe to use and is effective and more effective than a placebo, which means that now they're able to start conducting more clinical trials, and now they can be done in humans. So they've moved from preclinical models and animals, and now they're able to move to humans. So it's a really big deal. So this hasn't happened before for psychedelics, and this happened just this week. We actually do have the verdict, but I'm going to say that till the end. Aarati: 8:07 Oh, okay. Exciting. Because I know you were mentioning that last time, too, with the LSD episode, you were that, they were thinking that it might have some sort of promise for, I think, depression and anxiety and everything kind of got shut down by the government before a lot of that kind of testing could happen. And now research is very restricted. So this is exciting. Maybe this MDMA study could open some doors to other psychedelics and other mental health treatments. Arpita: 8:37 Exactly, exactly. And, um, we, we will totally get into this in more detail in the episode, but the research reached a peak in, you know, the first half of the 1900s that it got shut down, during kind of the Nixon Reagan administrations. And then it is now recently like in the last like five years or so seen a resurgence and more clinical trials are out. So it really has this like new rise in popularity and also in, general scientific interest. And a lot of this research is actually happening between, Cal Berkeley and UCSF. And so this is really interesting too, given that we both have ties to San Francisco and this was happening in our backyard. Okay. So let's dive in. Sasha Shulgin was born on June 17th, 1925 in Berkeley, to Theodore Stevens and Henrietta Shulgin. His father was Russian and his mom was born and raised in Illinois. Um, so he's half Russian, Russian American, and both his parents were teachers. Um, I really couldn't find a ton about his childhood. all the biopics and all of the biographies. Um, he also even wrote a book. Um, all of these things like didn't really talk very much about his childhood. It kind of picks up a lot later in his twenties. So, This is what I know. Like most of the scientists we've covered, he's a really smart kid. He went to Harvard on a full scholarship and he started studying organic chemistry. But once he got there, he realized that college wasn't really working for him. And he dropped out to join the Navy when he was 19. And while he was serving on a ship called the USS Pope, during the very end of World War II, he got an infection in his thumb and he had to have surgery. So right before the surgery, a nurse gave him a glass of orange juice and he drank the orange juice. And then when he got to the very bottom of the glass, he saw that there was like a little bit of powder in the bottom of the glass. And then he drank it, assuming that the nurse had put some sort of sedative in his drink and he fell asleep rapidly. But then he woke up and he realized that the powder in the bottom of his drink was actually just the undissolved sugar from his orange juice. And then this made him realize that placebo is a very, very powerful effect, and he started thinking about what this meant in terms of like what your mind is capable of and the things beyond just like what you would think of for medicine. So he credits this in a lot of interviews and even his own memoir. for where he first started to think about how much you could expand your mind and what your mind is really capable. Aarati: 11:26 Yeah. I mean, that's why we have so many control groups and clinical trials as well, right? Just to make sure that this is not a placebo effect that you're going through. This is actually the drug working. Arpita: 11:38 Right. And then to show that the drug is actually stronger than the placebo effect. So people get either the placebo or the trial drug, and it is to demonstrate that the effect is more powerful than placebo. The placebo knowing that people aren't going to know which one they get. Aarati: 11:58 But it's kind of crazy, like how powerful your mind is just thinking that maybe you had some medication or treatment can actually affect your physiology. I would be fascinated by that too. Arpita: 12:10 And he like experienced it firsthand too, which is really interesting at a really young age. So this does influence a lot of his work. So after he served in the Navy, he went back to Berkeley and he went back to school. Around this time in 1948, he met and married a woman named Nina Gordon. And a year later they had a son named Theodore Alexander. Don't know anything about Nina. She... Aarati: 12:36 She just randomly pops up. Arpita: 12:38 exist Yeah, she, yes, literally, she barely exists. I don't know anything about Nina. If anyone listening knows more about Nina Gordon, please tell me. I really tried. Aarati: 12:50 Yeah. Fair enough. I mean, this is, this is something that happens, I think, quite a lot when researching these stories is like, a lot of these scientists, their lives seem to start at college and then If you find anything about their family, it's like, by the way, they were married and they had a kid and that's, that's all you hear. Yeah. So, I appreciate you for trying though. Arpita: 13:11 Yeah. So Nina exists somehow. Um, and shout out to Nina. So we're back at Cal. He earns his bachelor's degree and then he goes on to pursue a PhD in biochemistry and he graduates in 1954. And then after this, he completes post doc work in psychiatry and pharmacology at the University of California, San Francisco. Aarati: 13:34 Oh, cool. Arpita: 13:36 This is where the story gets interesting. So after his postdoc, he works briefly at a research scientist at another company called Bio Rad, and then he moves to the Dow Chemical Company. I think still exists today. Aarati: 13:49 Bio Rad also exists still. Is it like, yeah, isn't it? Arpita: 13:54 Oh Dow does exist. Dow's in Hayward. Aarati: 13:57 Dow's in Hayward, really? Oh my gosh. That's right across the bay from me. Arpita: 14:03 I know. Dow's in Hayward. Um, it looks like Dow makes a ton of different chemical agents, like water clarifiers, adhesives, construction materials, I don't know, just like a bunch of stuff. Aarati: 14:22 Okay. Arpita: 14:23 And Bio Rad also exists, you said? Aarati: 14:25 Yeah, Biorad, I've seen their logo before, I think on like certain machines or like biology kits, like PCR kits and things like that. Arpita: 14:35 Yep. That's exactly right. You're right. Clinical diagnostics and life science research. Aarati: 14:39 Yep. Arpita: 14:40 Great. Okay. So, anyway, so now he's at Dow. Aarati: 14:43 Mm hmm. Arpita: 14:44 And at Dow, he is put to work on synthesizing pesticides. And one of the things that he develops is called Zectran, and it's the world's first biodegradable pesticide. And so it doesn't seep into the soil, it doesn't stay there, it degrades. So it actually is really, really beneficial to farmers, and people are very excited about this. Aarati: 15:05 Cool. Arpita: 15:06 So Zectran generates Dow. So much money and so much revenue that they gave him his name on his patent. He got the money from the patent and they were like, honestly, like do whatever you want. We don't even care. Like you can study or research whatever you want. So they gave him free reign to pursue any of his own interests and research what he wanted. Aarati: 15:28 Wow, amazing. So they just realized wow, you're brilliant We're not going to place any constraints on you go forth and pursue your passions. Arpita: 15:37 That is 100 percent what they said. So this was the same time in the late 1950s where Sasha had his first psychedelic experience. So he'd already been pretty interested in the chemistry of mescaline, which is the active ingredient in peyote. And one day he was like, you know what, I'm just going to try it. So he had a few friends watch him and keep an eye on him while he tried it himself. And he spent the afternoon, just like outside having a great time. And he wrote in his journal that he realized that everything he saw and thought quote,"had been brought about by a fraction of a gram of a white solid, but that in no way whatsoever, could it be argued that these memories had been contained within the white solid. I understood that our entire universe is contained in the mind and the spirit. We may choose not to find access to it. We may even deny its existence, but it is indeed there inside us and there are chemicals that can catalyze its availability." And he said, quote,"I learned there was a great deal inside of me." So he's thinking about psychedelics really as this, almost like this portal into this extra, like he's able to like a level up in his mind. Like he's using it as this way to learn about himself, to learn about the world around him. Aarati: 16:57 Mm-hmm. Arpita: 16:58 Which is a little bit different than the way we would think about recreational drugs, which we'll get into a little bit later, but, his purpose isn't to do it like, as a fun game, his purpose is really to understand himself and the world around him better. He's really thinking about it as this tool to be able to, like, access this deeper level within himself. Which is an interesting perspective. Aarati: 17:19 And that is a lot like what Albert Hoffman was doing with LSD as well, he was using it as this tool to unlock a higher plane of experience, I guess? it sounds like both of them are on that same level. Arpita: 17:35 There's a lot of similarities between their two stories. Aarati: 17:38 Did they know about each other? Do you know? I feel like they must have. Arpita: 17:42 I'm sure they must have like come across you. They also like we're around the same time period. Hoffman was a little earlier, but not by that much. They definitely would have been contemporaries. I didn't really see anything where they're like, work together or met, but I'm, I'm sure they knew of each other. Aarati: 17:56 Yeah, probably. At least read each other's papers, Arpita: 18:00 Exactly. Aarati: 18:01 other's Arpita: 18:02 Exactly. Exactly. So now that he's had this experience with the mescaline, at Dow, he starts exploring psychedelic compounds, and Dow remained true to its word and let him experiment in the laboratory and patented any of the compounds he developed. The ones that Dow decided not to patent, he published in journals like Nature and the Journal of Organic Chemistry. And as he was, you know, tinkering around with these psychedelic compounds, he became very fascinated by what he called the magic four position, which is the fourth carbon in a benzene ring. So, for those of you who don't know, a benzene ring is a carbon ring, so it's six carbons bound together by single and double bonds into a hexagon shape, basically. Um, and each of these carbons has a specific position. There's a one carbon, a two carbon, so forth and so on. And the fourth carbon, he realized in this ring, the compounds attached to this location could be manipulated to create variations in the phenyl ethylamine drug class. So he realized that there was just like this one carbon where he's tinkering with the compounds that are attached there can give him many different variations of the same compound within this drug class. Aarati: 19:20 Okay. And it's that specific carbon. It has to be the fourth one for some reason. It's the magic position. Arpita: 19:26 I think he was also just interested in this. I think he was like messing with it and was realizing that he was getting a lot of success by tinkering in this one spot and so I probably where this came from. I don't know that that carbon actually held special properties. I think it was just an interest of his and he like focused his attention on, you know, methylating, demethylating, like whatever that specific carbon. Aarati: 19:49 Right, that makes sense. Arpita: 19:50 I mean, the reason he was interested in this magic position was when he synthesized the compound DOM, which he bioassayed on January 4th, 1964. And he discovered that it was very very potent. So it was psychoactive at the one milligram dose, and up until then, phenylethamine as a drug class hadn't produced effects at such a low dose. So he got interested in this magic four position because of this particular drug. And then he was like, I wonder what else I could come up with based on this magic four position. Aarati: 20:25 I see. Does DOM stand for something? Like some long, long chemical name, probably? Arpita: 20:31 2,5- dimethoxy 4 methylphetamine. Aarati: 20:37 Nice. Okay. Arpita: 20:38 Nailed it. Aarati: 20:39 Yeah, super enlightening. I know everything now. I understood it perfectly. Arpita: 20:45 It's DOM. Aarati: 20:46 Yeah, it's DOM. Okay. Got it. And it's a super, super potent version of this, amphetamine. Arpita: 20:52 Yes, yes. very very super potent. So he's working on all these psychedelics at Dow and eventually Dow decides that they don't really want to support this work. They're like, I think a little bit, a little too far off the Aarati: 21:07 Uh, yeah, this is a little bit, uh, risky. No, thank you. Arpita: 21:12 Exactly. And so they were like, we would like you to stop using our company's name in your publications. And Sasha knew that DOM had potential because he's really hyper fixated on this Magic 4 Position and that other forms of the drug might be possible if he could tinker with this molecular structure. So in 1965, just a year after he synthesized DOM, he left Dow, and he went to go work in a laboratory that he constructed behind his house, and he called this laboratory,"The Farm". So at this point, he lives on the large property in Lafayette, which is east of Berkeley, just outside of San Francisco, and he sets up this, like, home laboratory, basically. And so now he's, uh, Quote, unquote freelancer, and he is a scientist working out of his house. And he starts teaching classes at San Francisco State University, UCSF, and San Francisco General Hospital. And so while he's teaching, he meets a man named Bob Sager, who is the head of the U. S. Drug Enforcement Agency. And Sasha starts to hold pharmacology seminars for DEA agents, and he starts supplying the DEA with samples of compounds that he develops, and sometimes even is serving as an expert witness in court. And then later, many years later, he authors a definitive law enforcement reference book on controlled substances, like he's really supportive of the DEA, even though he's working on all these substances that are, you know, not legal. Aarati: 22:49 But I can see that. It's, it's almost like those criminals that kind of go to work for the FBI at some point, so you have insider knowledge of how these things work, and if you're willing to flip and work for the good guys, then, yeah although in this case, he didn't flip, but... Arpita: 23:03 Yeah, like, I know it is interesting. Um, we'll get into it also a little bit later in the story, but it is interesting, like the legality of what he's doing, because he's coming up with these compounds, right? So he is developing them. Um, Aarati: 23:17 In his Arpita_Shulgin_final: 23:18 and Arpita: 23:19 On his Farm, actually Aarati: 23:20 Farm, uh, on his farm in the backyard. Arpita: 23:24 Yes, uh, in his full fledged lab, Aarati: 23:27 Yeah. I was wondering about that too. I was like, um, he's working with the DEA, but he has like a lab on his property. Like, is that allowed? Arpita: 23:36 Ok actually let me just read this next paragraph. So in order to work with scheduled psychoactive chemicals, Sasha needed a special license. Um, so this is actually true for anybody, regardless of whether they're working in a lab in their shed or if they're working, you know, in a lab at like an academic center, you need a special license in order to work with any, uh, drugs that are controlled. So this would be like Schedule 1, 2, 3, 4 drugs or whatever. And so, He has all these friends at the DEA, so this wasn't actually a problem. So he obtains a Schedule 1 license, which is the highest controlled substance license, and he is allowed to legally synthesize and possess any of these illicit drugs because he's doing it for research purposes. And so that's what he ends up doing, is he ends up synthesizing, testing all of these potentially psychoactive drugs. But back to what I was saying previously, The legality of this is interesting because only the things that are specifically listed as Scheduled 1 controlled substances are illegal, but he is creating new compounds that have never been documented before and they contain and they have some of the same properties that the illegal ones have, for example, amphetamines. Aarati: 24:52 Mm hmm. Arpita: 24:53 And so the DEA actually has a hard time with him because they're like, how do we. How do we regulate this? Like these drugs don't even exist until you come up with them. Aarati: 25:05 Yeah. then you have to, like, test them, you don't know what effects have, if any, you don't know how potent they are. Yeah. Arpita: 25:12 Right. So it is kind of like this gray area that he lives in for sure. Aarati: 25:16 Mm hmm. Arpita: 25:18 But he does have the license. And so this is what he's working on. So he is, oh my gosh, a side story here. I didn't write down, but one of the, one of my sources when I was researching this was, a New York Times article where the reporter goes to his home in Lafayette and interviews him at his home. And he gets a tour of The Farm. And he has, it's like, The reporter describes it as exactly like what you would think about in a cartoon or a movie where it's like a mad scientist laboratory, like, just a bunch of things in beakers, like, bubbling around like a big chalkboard covered in like benzene rings and like hexagons. Aarati: 25:58 Amazing. Arpita: 25:59 Has this like big wooden plank in the corner and he's like giving this reporter a tour and he was like, yes, I use this plank to like clear all the cobwebs from this shed that he's in because he literally in a shed in his garden, he's not in a lab. So, like, it's actually quite literally what you would think of as Aarati: 26:18 The mad scientist. Yeah. Like there, there is that trope. Yeah. And it has merit. Oh my gosh. It's people like him that make us all... Arpita: 26:28 yes. Aarati: 26:28 ...all seem crazy. Arpita: 26:30 And he also is like an eccentric dude. Like he is Russian American. He like sort of has this accent. He has like a big shock of like white hair. He's like always kind of wears this beret at like a jaunty angle. Like he's kind of what he's definitely a weird dude. And so like this combined with his interest in psychedelics combined with his farm situation. It's like he he's like a vibrant character, you know? Aarati: 26:53 I'm like imagining all the scientists in like Hollywood movies, like, uh, Robin Williams in Flubber, or, like, Back to the Future, like, you know, they're all these scientists that work in their garage and, like, create these crazy chemical compounds or time machines or whatever it is. Arpita: 27:11 A hundred percent the vibe. We're also like entering the early 70s at this point in the story. So it's this is the vibe. Aarati: 27:18 Yeah. Arpita: 27:19 Okay. So he is at the farm. He explores hundreds of psychedelic compounds. He invents a ton and he starts characterizing their psychoactivity through his very careful scientific assays. Aarati: 27:32 What does that mean? Like, how do you characterize psychoactive properties? Like, does he have mice or something? Like, how, because these are affecting your mind somehow, right? Arpita: 27:44 Yeah, we're, we're, telling this story so out of order now, but like, I feel like we're on a roll. So, no, it's no, no, it's really fine. I, this is good. Um, he tests them on himself. Aarati: 27:56 Of course. Okay. Of course. Of course. Arpita: 28:01 Um, Aarati: 28:01 Does the DEA know that? Arpita: 28:03 So. Okay, so let me read this. Okay. we're skipping around, but it's fine. Um, so he synthesizes all these different compounds and he loves classical music. And so he's usually listening to like Prokofiev or Rachmaninoff. And he is like with his, pipes and bubbling glassware and like all the things and when he was satisfied that he invented something worthwhile, he would ingest the new chemical first by deciding on the minimum amount required to have an effect and then takes one one thousandth of that dose, gradually increasing the dose until he felt its effects. Aarati: 28:40 Oh my goodness, Arpita: 28:41 But he did this in a very scientific way. So after he did all of these self experiments, he enlisted this small group of trusted friends with whom he regularly shared and also tested his creations on. And they developed this way of ranking the effects of the drugs known as the Shulgin Rating Scale. And it had a vocabulary to describe visual, auditory, and physical sensations. And he personally tested hundreds of drugs, if not thousands, mainly analogs of phenylamines and tryptamines and just all these like slight chemical variations. And he categorizes all of these effects. Some of them are pleasant. Some of them are unpleasant. They depend on the situation. They depend on the person. And this is all just like recorded in all of his lab notes. And he publishes all of these in his papers. So to answer your question, he does characterize the physical effects. He also does stuff like chromatography and stuff, and it's like understanding the chemical structure of all of these things, but... Aarati: 29:42 That makes sense. But to actually, like, that takes, I don't know what that takes. I don't know if that, it's, I don't want to call it courage, but just to take a substance that you don't know how it's going to affect you and then rope your friends into it, too, like, that requires an enormous amount of trust between your friends. Arpita: 30:00 I think based on everything here, I, I hear you. I agree with you. I think his perspective wasn't necessarily that he was being brave. I think it was coming from the sense of he had such a strong knowledge of this class of drugs that he was really kind of seeing himself more of an explorer than he was like, Oh, I'm doing something that could be potentially dangerous. Like, I don't think he really Aarati: 30:22 Like, he had some idea of what it should do because he knew what the chemical compounds were and what the chemical groups were. And so he had like some theory of like, if it has these chemical groups, it should probably interact with my brain this way or have make these kinds of effects. And he had kind of a theory. Arpita: 30:43 Yes, that is mostly right. It doesn't really seem like he was approaching this with, not necessarily fear, but like, approaching it with, like, something could go wrong. I don't think he thought that. Aarati: 30:52 Mm Yeah. I would, I don't know. I'd still be scared. I'd Arpita: 30:56 No, a hundred percent. Yeah, yeah. no. a thousand percent. I am with you. Aarati: 31:01 Yeah. Arpita: 31:01 But I don't think that's where his head was at. Aarati: 31:03 Yeah. I get that. Arpita: 31:05 Um, so one of the drugs he synthesized is called MEM. I'm not going to say it Aarati: 31:10 Okay. Arpita: 31:11 drug. There's Aarati: 31:11 But it stands for something. Arpita: 31:13 It stands for something, um, which he called a quote,"valuable and dramatic compound" that opened the door to a whole class of drugs that were similar to its chemical structure. Um, also an amphetamine. MEM was reported to cause visual distortions, color enhancement and pattern movement. This is just a list of like a bunch of his key compounds that he developed. So another one is called Aleph 1 and this gave him quote,"one of the most delicious blends of inflation, paranoia and selfishness that I've ever experienced." Aarati: 31:44 I love that description. Arpita: 31:46 I know. Aarati: 31:47 A delicious sense of inflation. Arpita: 31:50 Another, Ariadne was patented and tested as a drug for restoring the motivation in senile and geriatric patients. And another one called DIPT, created no visual hallucinations, but distorted the user's sense of pitch. So it was like an auditory effect, which is interesting. Aarati: 32:09 Oh. Interesting. Arpita: 32:10 Um, and he was really starting to become one of the world's foremost drug designers. Aarati: 32:16 That's an interesting title to have. A drug designer. Arpita: 32:19 Okay. So sidebar here. Nina dies. Aarati: 32:23 Oh no. Arpita: 32:23 She's gone. Aarati: 32:24 We don't know why. We don't know how. Arpita: 32:25 She had a stroke. Aarati: 32:27 Oh, she, she had a stroke. We know how. Okay. But. Bye bye Nina. We Arpita: 32:31 Nina's dead. Bye. Aarati: 32:32 We hardly knew ya. Yeah. Arpita: 32:35 I was trying to figure out where to put this in the story because when I read it it was like, he married Nina in like, what is it? 1950 something. Or 1948. And then it's like, Nina died of a stroke in 1977. Like that was the sentence. was do I just put it in one place? Like, do I put it later when actually...happens chronologically? Aarati: 32:54 Yeah. No. Great. Okay. Sounds good. No, I've had exactly that same problem. I totally feel you. It's like, what? We have one sentence about, okay, everything, but he had a son, right? So his son is still around. I'm assuming somewhere. Arpita: 33:10 is around,the son also dies. Aarati: 33:12 Okay. But we don't, we, oh no, really? Oh my gosh. Wait, how does the son die? Do we know? Arpita: 33:21 Oh, I don't remember how the son died. It was also like such an aside. Oh, hold on. I found his Facebook. Aarati: 33:29 I think I found it also, it also, um, it looks like he died in like 2011 or 2012 Arpita: 33:38 He did. He died in 2011. Yeah. Oh, Ted had a stroke and a quadruple bypass and was in the ICU. Aarati: 33:45 Oh my gosh. Arpita: 33:46 Okay, but anyway, Aarati: 33:47 Okay. Sorry. Yeah. Okay. But he dies much later. The, the wife died. Yeah. Okay. So we're, we're now where, like 1970s still? Arpita: 33:58 Yeah, we're at Aarati: 33:58 1976. Okay. Okay. Nina's gone. Arpita: 34:02 Okay. Nina' s gone. So in 1976, Sasha is introduced to MDMA by a student in a chemistry group that he advised at San Francisco State University. So MDMA actually wasn't new. It had been synthesized way back in 1912 by Merck and was patented in 1913, but it wasn't really ever explored in its own right. Merck didn't really see a purpose. Again, a lot of parallels to LSD. Aarati: 34:30 Mm-hmm. Arpita: 34:31 So at the time a similar amphetamine MDA was dubbed the mellow drug of America and was very popular on the psychedelic scene. And the student that Sasha was talking to mentioned having heard something about its methylated version. So MDMA is a methylated amphetamine, MDA is the one that was currently on the market. Aarati: 34:54 Okay. Arpita: 34:56 And so Sasha was interested and first tried 16 milligrams of MDMA and did not have any noticeable effect. Um, the usual dose that most people take is somewhere between 75 to 150 milligrams. So he upped this dose incrementally based on his protocol that he had, and he reports quote"first awareness at 35 minutes: smooth and it was very nice. 45 minutes: still developing but I can easily assimilate it as it comes under excellent control. 50 minutes: getting quite deep but I'm keeping a pace". So he's just like talking about this like rolling high that he is on. And he decides that this is something that's really interesting, that he wants to explore a little bit further. So he develops a synthesis method for MDMA, which is different than the one that we had. So instead of obtaining the drug itself, he decides to figure out a way to synthesize it himself. And later that same year, he introduces this chemical to a friend, Leo Zeff, who is a psychologist in Oakland, California. And Leo uses the substance in his practice in small doses to aid during talk therapy because it kind of gives you a little bit of an out of body, floaty sensation. Aarati: 36:18 Wait, so the psychiatrist is using it or he's giving it to his patients? Arpita: 36:22 He's giving it to his patients in tiny amounts during their talk therapy sessions. Aarati: 36:26 Interesting. Okay. Arpita: 36:28 So Leo starts like evangelizing about this and he introduces the substance to hundreds of psychologists and therapists all around the Bay Area and the nation, including a woman named Ann Gotlieb, who met Sasha in 1979 and she marries him. Yes, this is what I mean. like, I didn't really... Aarati: 36:48 Yeah. Yeah. Arpita: 36:50 Ann it's a little bit more important. So we will hear about Ann little bit more. But Ann is a psychologist who is very interested in psychedelics and they're now married. Aarati: 36:59 Oh, perfect. Match made in heaven. Arpita: 37:01 Yeah. Aarati: 37:02 Yeah. Arpita: 37:04 Also weird lady. So, you know, they're actually maybe Aarati: 37:07 Okay. Actually, she was probably thrilled with his Farm. It's like... she Wow!" Arpita: 37:11 Actually was. Aarati: 37:12 Amazing. Yeah. First date night in the farm. Arpita: 37:16 So I'm like glad they found each other. Yeah. So MDMA was really, really popular. Like, as you know, like, you know, it's known as ecstasy. It's like a drug that people use, you know, when they're like partying and like out you know, just like having a good time. Like it's like a party drug. Um, but Sasha doesn't actually find his MDMA experience transformative. He thought it was just like a kind of low alcohol buzz and he called it his quote low calorie martini. Aarati: 37:42 That's cute. Arpita: 37:43 Um, he did think that it was really interesting. It's a combination of kind of feeling floaty, intoxicated, but It also gave you this disinhibition. And it also gave you a sense of clarity, which is different than a lot of other psychedelics, because it usually doesn't give you more clarity. It usually actually numbs you or gives you a more of a sense of like out of body experience. It also doesn't really have as many visual and auditory changes that you get in other psychedelics. It opens you up to your inner thoughts and other people, but it doesn't really give you a hallucinations and it can give you a sense of clarity. So he thought this was really, really interesting. And because of that thought it would be pretty well suited to psychotherapy. So this is like all kind of happening around the same time. Aarati: 38:28 Yeah it sounds like you could maybe have some major breakthroughs maybe if you're on this drug because... Arpita: 38:33 Right. Exactly. Aarati: 38:35 ...you're able to introspect a lot better or something. Arpita: 38:37 Exactly. Exactly. That was the hypothesis. And as we know from Albert Hoffman's story, it wasn't really an unconventional idea. This is happening, you know, 15 years after LSD and psilocybin and mescaline were all being debated in academic circles about how they could be used. to treat alcoholism, depression, neuroses, all of these things. Like this is all conversation that is happening in the same time. So very similar to LSD, uh, it has this reputation as a wonder drug. You know, like they're like, this could cure everything. And some people are like,"Oh, this cured my depression that I've been working on for months." And there's all these psychiatrists that are saying like,"Every therapist that I talk to are like so impressed by all the results." So this is the conversation that's happening academically Aarati: 39:25 Yeah. Arpita: 39:26 But on the flip side, the drug was also showing up in nightclubs. And in 1986, the DEA placed it on the Schedule 1 list. And by the late nineties, a survey showed that millions of teenagers and college students were using it and then also abusing it. And so parents and public officials worried that there was this generation that was going to just be like hooked on drugs and like have cognitive decay. Aarati: 39:52 Oh, yeah. I remember all those D. A. R. E. programs and stuff kid. Arpita: 39:57 That is this. This is all happening here. That is this. So MDMA started in its, you know, kind of like, let's not have this around our kids with the war on drugs that started with the Nixon administration. And then it kind of like seeps into, you know, later in the nineties where we think about D.A.R.E. And all of these things that are like preventing kids from being part of drug culture. Aarati: 40:21 Yeah. Arpita: 40:22 Separately, Sasha is like fully in alignment with this. Like his intention was not to launch a global drug culture. He was not hoping that people would, you know, over consume this drug. And what he really liked about it was that it opened this portal into like introspection, not that people were taking crazy amounts of this and like hurting themselves. Aarati: 40:43 Yeah, I totally get that. It's like, with any other drug too, like, if you're, setting out to cure cancer or something, and then just as a side effect, the cancer treatment makes regular people who don't have cancer have some sort of, you know, crazy trip or something, and then they start abusing it. It's like, I didn't create it for that. I created it for a specific purpose, to help people who actually need help in some way, you know? And I, don't want people to be abusing it. So I totally get that. He's coming from a good place. Arpita: 41:16 Yeah. He's totally coming from a good place. He's also really frustrated because counterculture sort of hippie people are praising him. They're like,"Oh my God, this guy's created all these drugs for us to..." They've, they've like put them on a pedestal. They're like, he's our hero. And he's like, I am not interested in being your hero. Aarati: 41:34 Yeah. Arpita: 41:34 I created this for an entirely different purpose. Aarati: 41:37 Yeah. This is like a scientific endeavor. It's not supposed to be a recreational fun times, borderline dangerous, thing. Arpita: 41:44 A hundred percent. Exactly. That's exactly what's happening. So despite all of the work that Sasha has done on this drug, physiologically, even today, uh, we're skipping ahead a little bit, but like even today where there's a little, there's little consensus about what MDMA does to your brain on the long run. Aarati: 42:02 Ah just like LSD. Arpita: 42:04 Exactly. Yeah. we don't know. Also all the research got shut down. So it's like, we don't know for a lot of reasons. So researchers generally agree on its immediate physiological effects, especially on higher doses. It can increase muscle tension, heart rate, blood pressure, hyperthermia, And then there is a risk of, you know, dehydration, but really what it does on like a neurochemical level is that it temporarily exhausts the brain supply of serotonin. The extent of this depletion, we don't really understand. It seems like it differs a lot from person to person. And then the actual consequences in terms of like functional and behavioral effects, we don't really know, but that is what's happening in your brain is it's just serotonin, serotonin, serotonin, serotonin until it's all gone. Aarati: 42:52 Yeah. Yeah. Arpita: 42:54 In the early 80s, Sasha starts having these dreams that the DEA throws him in jail, ransacks his lab at home, and destroys all of his records, and he starts to get a little paranoid. Um, so, around this time, once he starts having these nightmares, He's also finding it a lot harder to get his work published. This is where, like, all of this stuff about drugs are bad gets much more pervasive, and journals are not interested. They're kind of leery about human psychedelic research, and he decides that he needs to find a way to get all of his information out into the public as quickly as possible. So at this point, he and Ann are working together pretty closely and he starts working on a book called, I don't even know how to say this. It's like PIKHAL it's like P-I-H-K-A-L. PIKHAL. And it stands for Phenylethamines I Have Known and Loved. Aarati: 43:48 That's the title of his book? Arpita: 43:50 Correct. Aarati: 43:51 Okay. Interesting. Arpita: 43:53 Yes. Aarati: 43:54 Is he like, just so used to shortening chemical names that he's now shortening the title of his book or something? So weird. Arpita: 44:00 I guess. It is very weird. No, this is very weird. The book is weird as hell also. I tried like skimming it to just see what the deal is. This book is so weird. So the first half of it is The Love Story and it's a very thinly fictionalized account of Sasha and Ann's respective comings of age, their previous marriages... Ann had been married three times prior to marrying Sasha and children from the other marriages. So like, you know, she has a history. And then All of their respective drug experiences that they had. The second part of this book, The Chemical Story is actually like, not even a story. It's just descriptions of 179 phenylethylamines and includes step-by-step instructions for synthesis along with recommended dosages, duration of action and qualitative comments, which is basically Sasha's opinions on how they make you feel. Aarati: 44:56 Oh my gosh. So this is like half autobiography half like lab manual kind of... Arpita: 45:03 It is, which is why, even though he wrote a memoir, I couldn't actually find anything about him because this book is insane. Aarati: 45:10 Yeah. Arpita: 45:10 Apparently, like while I was, I was writing this, I think the University of Berkeley's library hasn't had this book physically on their shelves in library because it has been checked out since it was published. Aarati: 45:25 Seriously? Arpita: 45:25 Like someone has it checked out since it was published. It's never actually on their shelves. Aarati: 45:31 Gosh. Oh my gosh There and there's like probably a waiting list of like 50 people. Arpita: 45:36 I'm sure it's like hundreds. Yeah. Um, again, I don't really get it. Like, there's also an ebook, obviously. And like, people can check that out. And I personally don't really get it. But, you know, i, sure making people... Bring bringing people joy. And he was like, very, I think it's maybe like a little bit less with like our generation, but maybe at least with the Gen Xers, in the Bay, like, very well known, like, people were like, we know him, like, he was very much part of this, like, Aarati: 46:04 Yeah. Arpita: 46:05 hippie counter-culturee Aarati: 46:06 Like you said, they had him on a pedestal. Mm hmm. And... Arpita: 46:09 Yeah. Aarati: 46:09 ...they're all just fascinated by him. Arpita: 46:12 Yes. He's like a Bay Area legend for sure, especially in this space. So then six years later, they actually wrote a second book called TIHKAL which is Tryptamines I Have Known And Loved, and it follows the exact same model. Aarati: 46:24 Okay. Arpita: 46:25 And his nightmares actually did come true. So two years after he published PIHKAL in 1994, the DEA did raid his lab. Um, the agency requested that Sasha turn over his license for violating the license terms and he was fined$25,000 for the possession of anonymous samples that were sent to him for quality testing. That being said, though, he actually did pass multiple reviews, prior to this and you know, the DEA had supervised his lab for over 15 years and they find anything illegal or irregular. But I guess this one time he had some specific compounds that he was not supposed to have and then they took away his license. Aarati: 47:05 Oh, no. Arpita: 47:06 Realistically, they were probably just looking for a reason to take it away. I think they were like, this is sus, this guy is working on Aarati: 47:11 too much of a problem. Yeah. He's He's just making compound after compound. We are in a war on drugs here, and he's... Arpita: 47:18 Yes. Aarati: 47:19 ...not helping. Yeah. Arpita: 47:21 That's definitely what happened. And then it doesn't help actually that Sasha and Ann were steadfast proponents of drug experimentation and legalization. So their argument was that drug induced states are just a core part of the human experience and intoxicants have just been known since the dawn of time. So even things like tobacco, opium, cannabis, coffee, alcohol, like these are things that even ancient civilizations have used and they advocate that legalizing all drugs, addictive or not, should be the case, and that it should be a matter of personal choice, and they're saying like, yeah, tax it for things like tobacco and alcohol, but the only laws that they think are needed are, you know, preventing people from driving while high or like drugging someone else without their permission or substances to children, but they want it to become a personal choice as opposed to making it this like taboo thing that will then get abused. So they're very much in proponent of making all drugs legal. Arpita: 48:26 again. There's maybe some Aarati: 48:28 sure about that. Yeah, I'm I'm like, you know, if like it's not like it's caffeine or something, you know, even caffeine. If you have too much of it'll kill you. If you have too much of anything, it'll kill you. You know, like, if you drink too much water, it will kill you. So it's. Yeah, there is a limit, Arpita: 48:47 Right. Aarati: 48:48 or something. But also, I don't know if there's no, if you haven't studied the substance to the degree that you know exactly how it works in your brain and how it might interact with other substances that you might have ingested, um, how your maybe weight or genetics play a role in it, like you don't know these things, you haven't, and so for that, until you know these things, I don't think there can be any conversation about just making it legal for everybody to have, you know, Arpita: 49:17 I... Aarati: 49:18 until you know it works. Arpita: 49:20 No, I agree with you. I think his perspective is very one sided and he is really coming from this place that people are only using drugs for their intended uses, which is not the case as we know. Aarati: 49:34 Yeah, he should know better. He should like all these, this whole hippie culture has arisen because of him, you know? Arpita: 49:41 No, exactly. And I think he's coming from this place of, if we just assume that everything is legal, then people will only use drugs in their intended use, which is not true. Humans cannot be trusted in that way, but it's because he's like, Oh, I create all these psychedelics with the purpose is to, you know, tranquility and inner understanding of yourself. Aarati: 50:03 to help people and it shouldn't be, yeah, it shouldn't, it shouldn't be restricted and therefore, you know, not be allowed, not able to help people, not be accessed to help people. Arpita: 50:16 Exactly. Aarati: 50:16 I get that, but at the same time, I'm just kind of like, you, you need to know how it works before you can just like, you need, you need to know something about it, you know? Arpita: 50:26 Good point. Yeah. I don't know. I know it's definitely a little one sided. Like I don't necessarily feel like I agree with it, but that I don't know. Neither here nor there. Aarati: 50:35 Yeah. Mm Arpita: 50:36 Um, so like I said, he disapproves of recreational use of many of the psychedelics that he develops. Um, recreational users often take very dangerous doses, which overshadow what he believed was their actual purpose, which is to gain personal insight. And he referred to psychedelics, like I said, as research tools. And he was really, really upset by any overdose deaths. And he said, "it's a motivation that I'm uncomfortable with. People using psychedelics, I am not uncomfortable with. I consider it a very personal, positive exploration, but I'm very disturbed by the overpowering of curiosity with greed." So it's like, this feels good. I'm going to take more and more and more until it gets abused. And so that's the part he was just like, I don't approve of that greed. Aarati: 51:19 Do you know if MDMA, I don't know if the, like, amphetamines and stuff, are they addictive? Because LSD was not. Arpita: 51:28 It's a MDMA is not addictive unless it is combined with other drugs. Aarati: 51:36 Okay. So by itself it's not addictive, but. Arpita: 51:39 So, even though it's an amphetamine, it's not addictive the way, like, methamphetamines are. I don't really know why that is, but good question. So during his lifetime, he invented over 200 mind altering substances, which is no mean feat, considering there actually might only be around 250 to 300 synthetics total, not counting nature's own hallucinogens like magic mushrooms, peyote, cacti et cetera. And in his early eighties, he was still working on this. And it was a series of N-allylated tryptamines. and he was like still tinkering even to his eighties. Um, this is around the time he got sick. So on April 8th, 2008, at the age of 82, he underwent surgery to replace an aortic valve. Then he got a stroke and then he started showing signs of dementia and then as this progressed Ann started taking care of him. Um, Ann started trying to sell a part of their property in order to raise money to help cover costs. And then finally on April 17th, 2014, Ann reported that her husband developed liver cancer and on June 2nd of the same year, he died at the age of 88. Aarati: 53:00 Oh, wow. Arpita: 53:01 So his son actually died just a few years before he did. Aarati: 53:04 Oh, that's so sad. Arpita: 53:06 Yeah. Which is really sad. Aarati: 53:07 Yeah. Arpita: 53:08 But back to our original point of the legacy of MDMA, um, Lykos, which is a pharmaceutical company that is related to MAPS, which is the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies. And if you remember from The Albert Hoffman episode, this is a nonprofit organization that is very much involved in the study of psychedelics and is very much at the forefront of this mission to get psychedelics legalized for, um, therapeutic use. Aarati: 53:43 Mm Arpita: 53:43 So, Lykos filed for a new drug application for MDMA safety and efficacy. And August 9th, just a few days ago, the U. S. Food and Drug Administration told a company they would not approve the psychedelic MDMA for use in psychotherapy. Specifically for post traumatic stress disorder. That's what this new drug application was for. So a little bit of background here. This is part of a recent conversation of like a bigger thing about MDMA's use for psychotherapy. Um, so just a background on MAPS, because they're a very key player in this. MAPS was founded in the eighties by this guy named Rick Doblin. He's a weird dude. So he has this very utopian way of talking about psychedelics. And he said, quote, "Psychedelics gave me this feeling of our shared humanity, of our unity with all life. And I felt it. And these experiences have the potential to help be an antidote to all of society's ills." End quote. Aarati: 54:45 Okay. Arpita: 54:46 Yeah. It's like a lot of sweeping things. So Doblin is a political scientist by training and his big strategy is to make, psychedelics like MDMA acceptable and to prove to the FDA that it's actually medicinal in order to do this. He needed a patient population that people would be supportive of or sympathetic with. And then this ended up being veterans. Um, which makes a lot of sense. like, you want to get people on board, it's like show that it's helpful for veterans and PTSD in particular. So a few years ago, MAP started a clinical trial for MDMA use in people with PTSD in the veteran population. And so they followed their standard protocol, MAPS' standard protocol. And in this, there is always a male therapist and a female therapist, and you do one session where you take a pill. uh, whether it's the placebo or the drug. And then you spend the following three sessions where you unpack that experience. You do another session with the pill, another three where you unpack that, and then you repeat this a set number of times, depending on the protocol. You don't know whether you're receiving the drug or the placebo, which is a key part of any clinical trial. Aarati: 55:57 Mm hmm. Arpita: 55:58 So, one big feeling with MDMA is a feeling of safety and craving physical intimacy, which is part of the reason why people like taking this drug recreationally. Aarati: 56:08 Mm hmm. Makes sense. Arpita: 56:09 However, there are reports that the trial therapists held participants in tight hugs or cuddled them very forcefully during these sessions, despite many participants having very severe trauma around physical touch or other people around them. So this brought up a lot of questions about the ethics of someone under the influence consenting to physical touch by a mental health professional. Aarati: 56:34 Yeah Arpita: 56:34 it's like they're not in their, you know, lucid state of mind. So they may seem like they do want this, but then. They are then spending the next three sessions unpacking this. So in some circumstances, people have said that this actually caused them much more trauma because this was something that was like very challenging for them. Aarati: 56:52 Yeah Arpita: 56:53 The other issue here is that many participants knew that they were getting either the placebo or the drug, because sometimes you got the placebo, sometimes you got the drug, you either tripped or you didn't. And it was really, really obvious given the hallucinations, sorry, not hallucinations, but like the somatic symptoms that you would have and like the out of body feeling, it'd be very obvious like Aarati: 57:14 Mm hmm. Arpita: 57:14 whether you got the placebo or not. Aarati: 57:16 Yeah Mm hmm it doesn't, placebo effect doesn't work if you kind of know that... know what's happening. Arpita: 57:22 Exactly. Exactly. So MAPS is under criticism right now, because even though they are technically a nonprofit, they are very motivated to bring psychedelics into the mainstream. They're this really big facet of Burning Man culture, which we know is a festival with a huge recreational drug scene. And because they're so motivated, they might not be collecting data in the most ethical way. And even though there is promise for MDMA to be a tool in psychotherapy, the way the clinical trials are conducted makes it challenging to adequately and safely collect safety and efficacy data that you need. For clinical to take place. And this is actually why the new drug application was rejected. It's because they weren't able to show that MDMA had significant effects beyond placebo because this reason. That's why rejected. Um, and a lot of the scientists who worked on this were at Berkeley and UCSF, so it'll be really interesting to see how this pans out in coming years, but it's like, definitely a conversation that's happening right now, which Aarati: 58:28 Wow. That's really interesting. So they really need to, sounds like, nail down their ethics here. Arpita: 58:35 Yeah, I know. I hadn't really heard this before. Um, I was listening to actually just the Vox podcast, and this was like one of the episodes recently, like literally last week. And they were talking about this FDA, you know, ruling on the new drug application. And they were talking about how MAPS has unethical like some like criticism on their ethics, and I was like, Oh, we just talked about MAPS. And MAPS sounds like this really great thing that's trying to bring, you know, psychedelics to the people. And it's like, not that it's a bad thing, but it's like, they might have questionable methods for obtaining these things. And it's maybe working for some people, but like, we should be critical of the way these data are being obtained. And so... Aarati: 59:15 Yeah the means don't always justify the ends kind of thing. Yeah, you need to, you need to do things in the right way, even though your intentions are honorable, and, you know, this could potentially help a lot of people. You need to go about it the proper way. Yeah. Through the proper channels. Arpita: 59:32 But yeah, it's still developing and that's the story of Sasha Shulgin and MDMA. And so we don't have a new drug application, but we might in the next few years. Aarati: 59:42 Oh, exciting. We should definitely keep our eye on this and hopefully update our listeners as we go along. Arpita: 59:49 Totally agree. Aarati: 59:50 Yeah. Oh, great story though. I had actually never heard of Sasha Shulgin. Arpita: 59:55 Me either. Aarati: 59:56 yeah. Arpita: 59:56 We're not good Bay Area Aarati: 59:58 Yeah. We're not, I think Arpita: 59:59 about that. Arpita: 59:59 I was gonna say, I think we're too young. But Aarati: 1:00:01 That too. We did miss the whole 80's culture, like drug culture. We just. You know, we just went into school and immediately were bombarded by don't do drugs, and we're like, okay, Arpita: 1:00:14 I love all the memes that are like elementary school made me think that people are gonna be offering me drugs on every corner and it turns out that you actually have to pay a lot of money for Aarati: 1:00:23 Yeah, literally. No, it literally did. It had like the creepy guy in the jacket who's like, Hey kid, you want to do some drugs? And you're like supposed to say no, so yeah, it, it Arpita: 1:00:36 Yeah. All the memes are so funny though. Just like, you know, like the, the, all the jokes about like, check your kids Halloween candy, cause they might be drugged. And like all the jokes about that are like, I paid a lot of money for my drugs and I'm not going to just put them in some random kid's Halloween candy. Aarati: 1:00:51 That is a good point, actually. Yeah. Like, what is the, what is the point of that? Yeah. Arpita: 1:00:57 Anyway, that's our story. Aarati: 1:01:00 Yes. Great story. Arpita: 1:01:02 Thank you. Arpita: 1:01:03 like to talk about Arpita: 1:01:04 drugs. Arpita: 1:01:05 Just some drugs. Yeah. Aarati: 1:01:06 Yeah. Thanks for listening. If you have a suggestion for a story we should cover or thoughts you want to share about an episode, reach out to us at smarttpodcast. com. You can follow us on Instagram and Twitter @smarttpodcast and listen to us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And leave us a rating or comment, it really helps us grow. New episodes are released every other Wednesday. See you next time!